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gnashings

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I have done the search, I looked everywhere - old threads,new threads, even threads I participated in - and while Perceptol is mentioned often, there seems to be some wide ranging ideas on its use, dilutions and the effects thereof.
Here is my question. I am about to try Perceptol for the first time, even though I am a grain-o-phile and ardent Rodinal user (the other roll I will soup tonight is HP5 @800 in Rodinal:smile:), I wanted to try some shots that I want to obtain minimum grain from, with smooth tonality.

Here is what I understand to be true:
The more you dilute Perceptol, the sharper the negs (through lesser disolving action of the developer). But, of course, the smaller its fine grain properties.
It seems that almost everyone scoffs at stock solution, and even 1+1. It seems 1+3 is the preferred dilution by those who use it.

To continue with my question, does Perceptol retain any of its fine grain properties at 1+3? In comparison to lets say, Rodinal 1+50 or D76 1+1 (I know they are different - I mean in relation to each one in its own right), what should I expect from Perceptol 1+3?

To give a little more detail, my trial roll is PanF+ @25, in 120 format. I will be using a patterson tank and reel (my usual agitation - using the stir-stick-twirly-thingy for 30 secs then 10 secs every minute at a steady, moderate pace) at 20deg C, and will print on a condenser enlarger. The roll contains a variety of subject matter as it was abit of a trial run - from portraiture to landscape to plant life, in normal outdoor lighting conditions - not too contrasty, but not a grey overcast day, either.

Sorry about my usual long-windedness (pehaps this is the signature I am looking for?:smile:), and thank you in advance for any and all input,

Peter.

PS. I plan to use the times I see on the MDC (which seem to be exactly Ilford's times) - if anyone has any suggestions other than that, I would love to read those, too.
 

dalahorse

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gnashings said:
It seems that almost everyone scoffs at stock solution, and even 1+1. It seems 1+3 is the preferred dilution by those who use it.
Grain becomes more visible at 1+1, but it is good and sharp. I've never tried 1+3 since grain isn't my thing. Pan F+ gets that really silky-smooth look when used undiluted. That's the look I prefer.

gnashings said:
I plan to use the times I see on the MDC (which seem to be exactly Ilford's times) - if anyone has any suggestions other than that, I would love to read those, too.
I find the box instructions to be fine and follow them exactly: 9 min, 1+0, 20 deg C, EI 25.
 
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gnashings

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Thanks for the suggestion. I think if I am going to try Perceptol, I might as well try it all out!
 
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I've only used it for MF and LF negs at 1+3, so I cannot comment on the grain (doesn't really present a problem at the sizes I print). The tonal range and plasticity of the negatives is interesting, though. Highlight contrast seems to me somewhat low, a thing that is convenient when you shoot under high-contrast lighting conditions.

I should add that Perceptol is not really recommended for developing underexposed negatives, like the other one you're talking about, so it's a good idea to soup it in another dev.
 
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gnashings

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George Papantoniou said:
I've only used it for MF and LF negs at 1+3, so I cannot comment on the grain (doesn't really present a problem at the sizes I print). The tonal range and plasticity of the negatives is interesting, though. Highlight contrast seems to me somewhat low, a thing that is convenient when you shoot under high-contrast lighting conditions.

I should add that Perceptol is not really recommended for developing underexposed negatives, like the other one you're talking about, so it's a good idea to soup it in another dev.

Thanks for chiming in - I appreciate the input. The other neg is going into Rodinal 1+25 because I couldn't find times for 1+10 :smile:
 

John Simmons

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I rountinely use perceptol diluted 1+2. The late great barry thornton wrote of this combination in both his books for excellent fine grain and apparent sharpness. I use it with across on my 4x5 negs in tubes with constant agitation for 16 minutes at 68F. The massive development chart is a great resource for this developer because they give you times for the 1+2 dilutions for many films.
 
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gnashings

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John Simmons said:
I rountinely use perceptol diluted 1+2. The late great barry thornton wrote of this combination in both his books for excellent fine grain and apparent sharpness. I use it with across on my 4x5 negs in tubes with constant agitation for 16 minutes at 68F. The massive development chart is a great resource for this developer because they give you times for the 1+2 dilutions for many films.

Thanks, I see there is life beyond 1+3:smile:
Could anyone give me a comparison (I know it would be very generalized - I will do my own tests, I just srot want to know a ball park of what to expect) when comapring grain size and sharpness to a couple of devs I am familiar with (Rodinal and D76, for example) - given the same film? I know that this would be very broad brushed at best, but would give me a helpful bearing for what to expect, more or less.
Thanks again, you guys have been great, helpful as always!

Peter.
 

jim appleyard

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FWIW, I've never used Perceptol, but I have used quite a bit of Microdol-X, the Kodak version and I've used it on APX 400 and Tri-X. I have not used it on Pan-F, but it should be an interesting combo.

I found that the 1+3 was a nice blend of sharpness and grain; not quite as fine-grained as the 1+0 dilution, but "smoother" that souping it in Rodinal.

I would expect some longish dev times. The Massive Dev. Chart calls for a time of 15 min at 1+3 for an EI of 25. Most info on Perceptol & Mic-X calls for an increase in exposure for the 1+0 dilution, about 1 stop, but not quite so much for 1+3, so you may be able to shoot your Pan-F at a higher EI than 25.

I'm probably not telling you anything new, but do a test roll! Perhaps you've found yourself a new combo here? Good luck!
 

Gerald Koch

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Since PanF+ is already a very fine grain film you are not going to see much of a difference when using Perceptol in different concentrations. This is particularly true in film sizes greater than 35mm.

Maximum solvent activity occurs with a sulfite concentration of approximately 70%. FS Perceptol has a sodium sulfite concentration of 125 g/l so that 1+1 is about maximum sulfite activity. If you are merely testing Perceptol than HP5+ would offer a better test. If you are interested in PanF+ then I wouldn't bother with Perceptol. Actually using a solvent developer will degrade the apearance of fine grain films like PanF+. You get less grain but also less sharpness.
 

Gerald Koch

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Since PanF+ is already a very fine grain film you are not going to see much of a difference when using Perceptol in different concentrations. This is particularly true in film sizes greater than 35mm.

Maximum solvent activity occurs with a sulfite concentration of approximately 70%. FS Perceptol has a sodium sulfite concentration of 125 g/l so that 1+1 is about maximum sulfite activity. If you are merely testing Perceptol than HP5+ would offer a better test. If you are interested in PanF+ then I wouldn't bother with Perceptol. Actually using a solvent developer will degrade the apearance of fine grain films like PanF+. You get less grain but also less sharpness.
 

Petzi

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What is the point of using fine grain developer on coarse grain film?
 
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gnashings

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Thanks for all your input - I think I wanted to try the PanF Perceptol combo just because I am used to shooting with such grainy combos that I suppose I wanted to do a little "overkill". I think I will most likely save it for 35mm faster films from now on - the benefit should be greatest there when I desire a bit less grain.
I souped a roll of PanF at 25 in stock Perceptol. The negatives look a little less punchy than I am used, but of course, I will reserve judgement until I print something. It looks like a really nice combo for things you want to have that "mellow" look. I have a shot of some wild flowers that I am especially pleased with on this roll.
Thanks again, I could write a book filled with just things I learned from APUG members!

Peter.
 

Gerald Koch

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Petzi said:
What is the point of using fine grain developer on coarse grain film?
That is the purpose of fine grain developers to reduce the grain of coarse grain films.
 

dalahorse

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gnashings said:
I think I wanted to try the PanF Perceptol combo just because I am used to shooting with such grainy combos that I suppose I wanted to do a little "overkill".
Is it overkill? I mean, if it's no more expensive, complicated, or time consuming, why not use a fine grain developer by default? It sure would be easier for me to leave the RB67, tripod, and Pan F+ at home and just take the little Pentax, zoom lens, and Delta 3200 into the mountains. If I'm already going to all that trouble to get a high quality, fine grained negative, why would I choose a general purpose developer? I can dilute Perceptol depending on the look I want: 1+0:Smooth. 1+1:Sharp. Easy.
 

Gerald Koch

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It's pointless to use a fine grain developer with a fine grain film because the solvent action destroys fine detail which is the very reason for using the fine grain film in the first place.

Maximum solvent action with fine grain developers occurs at a sulfite concentration of approximately 70%. Perceptol contains 125 g/l of sodium sulfite, therefore Perceptol at 1+1 should produce finer grain than full strength. You could use it 1+3 in order to regain some of the detail but development times would be very long. Developers like Perceptol are really dinosaurs. They had more utility years ago when films were coarser grained.
 

Petzi

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Gerald Koch said:
That is the purpose of fine grain developers to reduce the grain of coarse grain films.

I realise that. But then you could use fine grain film in the first place, no?
 

jim appleyard

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It's not always about fine grain or course grain, it's also about the tonal quality or the "look" of a particular film in a particular dev. Tri-X in Rodinal is hardly what I would call "fine grain", but the image that comes out of that combo can be lovely.

Something like the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.
 

Gerald Koch

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Petzi said:
I realise that. But then you could use fine grain film in the first place, no?
But then there is the speed factor. You must often use a fast film and fine grain developers allow you to reduce the coarse grain that they often have. It's all a compromise between speed, grain, tonality, etc.
 

Alan Johnson

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Perceptol 1+3 was formerly my main developer.Barry Thornton argued in Edge of Darkness (good read) that acutance can be made to look greater by edge effects and that dilute Metol creates these.A developer using only metol and having low alkalinity is Perceptol and when diluted the solvent effect is negated.He recommended the 1+3 dilution.
I agree with his arguement.I recon that if hydroquinone is present (D76 ,ID11) the metol gets regenerated and does not fall to the low concentration to give such good edge effects.
 

Sparky

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Whoooaaa... slow it down there...!

That 10 seconds per minute agitation program you have going there is pretty intense, Sparky! (oh wait - that's MY name!). Chances are - if you're shooting Pan F at 25 (I'd recommend 32) your dev. time is going to be around, what - 14 mins?? (I haven't done this combo in about 10 years! - though it was my mainstay throughout the 80s) I'd give minimal (but violent!) agitation. My recommendation would be every 90-120 sec. and keeping it under two seconds agitation if you can. Try not to repeat the same agitation pattern either if possible. Then you can capitalize on the lovely tonality and acutance of this combo! 1+3 is the way to do it!
 

BBMOR

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hey and hello from Belgium

i use perceptol as my standard developper,HP 5 rated as 200 and dev in perceptol 1+3 at 24 °C ,the first 30sec cont agitating and the rest of the 16min each two min 3x
This produces fantastic neg ,easy to print,in 35mm and 120.Grain is not seen even on a 30x40 from 35mm neg (i do not like grain)
Never used Pan F but the Efke 25 in Rodinal is also real good

have a try

jm















)C
 
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I use pan f and rate it at 25 and develop it in perceptol 1:1. This was a great combination, I say was because I can no longer get perceptol!

Do you people in the land of the free have a secret source of have you just been hoarding.

I also cannot find a recipe for perceptol, does anyone know where I can find one?
 
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gnashings

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Sparky said:
That 10 seconds per minute agitation program you have going there is pretty intense, Sparky! (oh wait - that's MY name!). Chances are - if you're shooting Pan F at 25 (I'd recommend 32) your dev. time is going to be around, what - 14 mins?? (I haven't done this combo in about 10 years! - though it was my mainstay throughout the 80s) I'd give minimal (but violent!) agitation. My recommendation would be every 90-120 sec. and keeping it under two seconds agitation if you can. Try not to repeat the same agitation pattern either if possible. Then you can capitalize on the lovely tonality and acutance of this combo! 1+3 is the way to do it!

My poor head - now I am confused! I tried to always keep my agitation pattern as consitant as possible to eliminate an extra variable when I try to fine tune my process based on the results I get. It has so far been working for me - is this Perceptol 1+3 specific advice or just in general?
I do appreciate everyones input - thanks!

Peter.

PS. Tony, I can get it over the counter at my local Henry's. Its $3.69 CDN per box to make 1L, and each such box weighs 139g. If it would make sense to ship it to you, I'd be happy to help you out. I would need an address to get you a shipping quote.
 

Markok765

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gnashings said:
PS. Tony, I can get it over the counter at my local Henry's. Its $3.69 CDN per box to make 1L, and each such box weighs 139g. If it would make sense to ship it to you, I'd be happy to help you out. I would need an address to get you a shipping quote.
How come i cant in toronto or waterloo?
 

BBMOR

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Hello

i have a recepie for perceptol
for one liter
5 gr of metol
100 gr of Na sulfit
30 gr Nacl (without iodium)
3.5 gr Calgon or Hexametaphosphate

have a good mixing

jm
 
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