Has anyone tried the new Rollei black and white film? If so, have you encountered any particular darkroom problems? Have you any experience of different developers with it?
Rollei R3 film
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I have tried a couple of rolls, developed in D76 as described in the "manual". Tried both EI 200 and 400. The results was a disaster, ugliest grain I`ve ever seen in a film....
I think you have to use the chemicals made for this film to get anything useful out of it....
I think you have to use the chemicals made for this film to get anything useful out of it....
If you want higher speeds with R3 film, try the LP supergrain or the Amaloco AM74.
The film has better quality and possibilities on the higher and very low iso ranges. D76 and R3 is not fitting very well (unless the spec).
I am going to test this film further with the SPUR HRX-2, SLD and SD 2525 developer. Maybe AM50 is also a good alternative for this special film.
Best regards,
Robert
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
PS. In the past the Cube 400C was also no succes with D76/ID11 in my test. The cubic (multi-)emusion layer is simmular with the R3.
The film has better quality and possibilities on the higher and very low iso ranges. D76 and R3 is not fitting very well (unless the spec).
I am going to test this film further with the SPUR HRX-2, SLD and SD 2525 developer. Maybe AM50 is also a good alternative for this special film.
Best regards,
Robert
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
PS. In the past the Cube 400C was also no succes with D76/ID11 in my test. The cubic (multi-)emusion layer is simmular with the R3.
Thanks for your reply. I definitely won't try D76.
Thanks fotohuis, I would be very interested to hear of your further trials as you do them.
One of my customers tried in Xtol, looks also good. That's why HRX-2 could be also succesfull in the low iso range.
Here is the (Dutch) website with the pictures: http://forum.fotoapparatuur.net/viewtopic.php?t=4557
Regards,
Robert
Here is the (Dutch) website with the pictures: http://forum.fotoapparatuur.net/viewtopic.php?t=4557
Regards,
Robert
The XTOL examples looks allright, it seems it`s shot on MF, and the grain will be less apparent on a larger negative. Maybe I should develop in Rodinal, to really bring out that grain 
It has been made on 6X6 (cm).
The two disadvantages of the Cube 400C, the blue polyester layer is clear now (R3) and a special N.C. (non curling) layer prevents the R3 film from curling which could be annoying with the Cube 400C.
The 3 layer cubic emulsion is quite special and I think this is the problem with D76/ID11. AM74 which is a liquid alternative, works much better on the Cube 400C (iso400-iso1600) and I can predict this also for the R3.
More interesting is the right combination on the low iso range. I will try HRX-2 and Perceptol first (iso 50 or iso 25). The SD 2525 could be a good alternative. I will ask Heribert Schain (SPUR) to do some preliminary tests.
Best regards,
Robert
The two disadvantages of the Cube 400C, the blue polyester layer is clear now (R3) and a special N.C. (non curling) layer prevents the R3 film from curling which could be annoying with the Cube 400C.
The 3 layer cubic emulsion is quite special and I think this is the problem with D76/ID11. AM74 which is a liquid alternative, works much better on the Cube 400C (iso400-iso1600) and I can predict this also for the R3.
More interesting is the right combination on the low iso range. I will try HRX-2 and Perceptol first (iso 50 or iso 25). The SD 2525 could be a good alternative. I will ask Heribert Schain (SPUR) to do some preliminary tests.
Best regards,
Robert
Well, I had him on the phone this morning. SD 2525 is not suitable for the R3 because this developer is working on the surface only.
For the R3 it is necessary to use a developer who is working on all 3 layers. An indication is also the developing time which was for the mentioned X-tol example (1+2) :29 Minutes, which is a pretty long time but it seems to be successfull.
SPUR will try to optimize a developer for this cubic 3-layer emulsion for maximum preformance.
to be continued....
Robert
We tried on CG 512 (Udo Raffay), R3 iso 50 , 23-24 Min. seems to be a reasonable optimum. Better than our last Pan F (iso 50) available from Ilford.
We are going to try in AM74 (Amaloco) around iso 1000 and compare the results on Neopan 1600 and SPUR SLD, also on iso 1000. Previous tests with the Cube 400C, with a simmular emulsion 3 layer as the R3 were good.
The CG 512 and R3 is a nice combination. RoVo can recomment this for the Rollei R3.
to be continued ....
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
We are going to try in AM74 (Amaloco) around iso 1000 and compare the results on Neopan 1600 and SPUR SLD, also on iso 1000. Previous tests with the Cube 400C, with a simmular emulsion 3 layer as the R3 were good.
The CG 512 and R3 is a nice combination. RoVo can recomment this for the Rollei R3.
to be continued ....
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
Robert's results are very interesting. I posted my first impressions of R³ a while ago, but it might have been on pure-silver. Can't remember - I'll have to fish around...
There is still a lot of messing around with R³ that I'd like to do - just a matter of finding the time, and work tends to get in the way. R³ and Cube seem to reward effort to get things 'just right' and I'm just curious and fanatically dedicated to film. This has nothing to do with taking pictures, of course. I suspect that R³ deserves the kind of fanaticism that Super XX generates. Anyway, please regard my ramblings below as my raw thoughts about work in progress.
In brief:
The 120 R³ I have is not edge marked. It is rather curly, and not much different from 120 Cube 400c, apart from the total lack of edge markings.
The 135 R³ is numbered and identified, but the numbers are out of sync with the cassette loads. It is clear and not curly - quite different in that respect from Cube 400c.
These teensy-weensy problemettes may have been restricted to early batches, I don't know.
I liked, and used, Cube 400c, so I came to R³ with some experience. I have found it to be a very versatile film, capable of coping with a very wide scene brightness range at the lower speeds. I used to use W2D2+ for Cube, but I've been trying the Rollei Low Speed and High Speed developers with R³. They appear to be good combinations. So far I prefer the results as a negative at 200 and below to those at 400 and above - but that is just my taste.
It reverses very well at the higher speeds, and is ideal in many ways: there are plenty of very fine grains that survive until the reversal developer, so the final image has very low graininess. I have no definite idea why, but permanganate bleach gives a longer density range (lower D-min) than dichromate bleach, all other steps being the same. That's a puzzle that can only be explained by incomplete bleaching by the dichromate, I think, but I really don't know yet and I need to look at bleaching times. I'm using PPD with sodium dithionite (also tried Amidol with sodium dithionite in bisulphite) for the second dev. (you might need to know that I'm trying to optimise for scanning with a Nikon 5000/9000, not for viewing on a light-table or projection so all of this is of limited relevance here. Sorry folks!) I still have a lot of tweaking to do though.
Robert,
What is CG 512?
Best,
Helen
There is still a lot of messing around with R³ that I'd like to do - just a matter of finding the time, and work tends to get in the way. R³ and Cube seem to reward effort to get things 'just right' and I'm just curious and fanatically dedicated to film. This has nothing to do with taking pictures, of course. I suspect that R³ deserves the kind of fanaticism that Super XX generates. Anyway, please regard my ramblings below as my raw thoughts about work in progress.
In brief:
The 120 R³ I have is not edge marked. It is rather curly, and not much different from 120 Cube 400c, apart from the total lack of edge markings.
The 135 R³ is numbered and identified, but the numbers are out of sync with the cassette loads. It is clear and not curly - quite different in that respect from Cube 400c.
These teensy-weensy problemettes may have been restricted to early batches, I don't know.
I liked, and used, Cube 400c, so I came to R³ with some experience. I have found it to be a very versatile film, capable of coping with a very wide scene brightness range at the lower speeds. I used to use W2D2+ for Cube, but I've been trying the Rollei Low Speed and High Speed developers with R³. They appear to be good combinations. So far I prefer the results as a negative at 200 and below to those at 400 and above - but that is just my taste.
It reverses very well at the higher speeds, and is ideal in many ways: there are plenty of very fine grains that survive until the reversal developer, so the final image has very low graininess. I have no definite idea why, but permanganate bleach gives a longer density range (lower D-min) than dichromate bleach, all other steps being the same. That's a puzzle that can only be explained by incomplete bleaching by the dichromate, I think, but I really don't know yet and I need to look at bleaching times. I'm using PPD with sodium dithionite (also tried Amidol with sodium dithionite in bisulphite) for the second dev. (you might need to know that I'm trying to optimise for scanning with a Nikon 5000/9000, not for viewing on a light-table or projection so all of this is of limited relevance here. Sorry folks!) I still have a lot of tweaking to do though.
Robert,
What is CG 512?
Best,
Helen
Last edited by a moderator:
CG 512 is a partial Metol based ultra-fine developer from Udo Raffay. It is available mainly in Germany, the same like the SPUR developers.
AM74 is from Amaloco Photochemicals in Ommen, the Netherlands. They are exporting mainly to Germany (Phototec), Belgium (De Beukelaer), France, Sweden, Austria, England and we are trying to do some business for them in the Czech Republic and Slovakia (Sc'art - Bratislava). A decision for the Czech Republic has not been made yet.
Best regards,
Robert
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
AM74 is from Amaloco Photochemicals in Ommen, the Netherlands. They are exporting mainly to Germany (Phototec), Belgium (De Beukelaer), France, Sweden, Austria, England and we are trying to do some business for them in the Czech Republic and Slovakia (Sc'art - Bratislava). A decision for the Czech Republic has not been made yet.
Best regards,
Robert
www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
Helen,
CG512 is a developer formulated by Udo Raffay, Hamburg, who worked for CG-Chemie in Hamburg, Author of one "must-have" book "Sammlung fotografischer Rezepte".
The developer is still available, but I don´t know if Raffay is still alive or if CG-Chemie is still around.
CG-Chemie used to be located at:
CG-Vertrieb
U.Raffay,
Faehrstrasse 56a, 21502
Geesthacht, Tel. 040-73109719 o. 04152-75401. FAX: 04152-71153.
CG512 is a developer formulated by Udo Raffay, Hamburg, who worked for CG-Chemie in Hamburg, Author of one "must-have" book "Sammlung fotografischer Rezepte".
The developer is still available, but I don´t know if Raffay is still alive or if CG-Chemie is still around.
CG-Chemie used to be located at:
CG-Vertrieb
U.Raffay,
Faehrstrasse 56a, 21502
Geesthacht, Tel. 040-73109719 o. 04152-75401. FAX: 04152-71153.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
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Mr. Raffay is dead - his deveolper CG 512 still available
Roman, did you get a copy finally of this 'must have' book?
Mr. Raffay died some years ago. Fortunately I have had the oportunity to talk to him by phone once. According to him differences between most developers were subtle. But CG512 is certainly different, supposed to be sharper as Perceptol with similar graininess (or lack of visable grain).
Regards,
Stefan [from Germany too, you know who I am...]
rjr said:
Roman, did you get a copy finally of this 'must have' book?
Mr. Raffay died some years ago. Fortunately I have had the oportunity to talk to him by phone once. According to him differences between most developers were subtle. But CG512 is certainly different, supposed to be sharper as Perceptol with similar graininess (or lack of visable grain).
Regards,
Stefan [from Germany too, you know who I am...
]
Stefan,
indeed, I know who you are - took me moment (too many Stefan around), but your screenname helped a lot with that. And welcome to APUG. ;-)
"According to him differences between most developers were subtle."
Ein wahres Wort. Did you ever compare CG512 and HRX2?
Nope, still haven´t ordered it - I bought piles of oooold Fotokino stuff and some other classics instead. But you could bring it along next week, I´d love to have look at it. ;-)
indeed, I know who you are - took me moment (too many Stefan around), but your screenname helped a lot with that. And welcome to APUG. ;-)
"According to him differences between most developers were subtle."
Ein wahres Wort. Did you ever compare CG512 and HRX2?
Nope, still haven´t ordered it - I bought piles of oooold Fotokino stuff and some other classics instead. But you could bring it along next week, I´d love to have look at it. ;-)
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 2
- Format
- 35mm RF
Hello Roman,
Roman wrote:
> "According to him differences between most developers were subtle."
>
> Ein wahres Wort. (=There's some trooth in it.)
> Did you ever compare CG512 and HRX2?
No I did'nt. - But I am going to compare Maco LP-CUBE XS to Champion Promicrol. I have them both here (As you might already know LP-Cube XS is an slightly improved version of CG512.)
> But you could bring it along next week, I´d love to have look at it. ;-)
I will do. I must admit that I only own a copy of this book, made more than 10 years ago... .
Regards,
Stefan
Roman wrote:
> "According to him differences between most developers were subtle."
>
> Ein wahres Wort. (=There's some trooth in it.)
> Did you ever compare CG512 and HRX2?
No I did'nt. - But I am going to compare Maco LP-CUBE XS to Champion Promicrol. I have them both here (As you might already know LP-Cube XS is an slightly improved version of CG512.)
> But you could bring it along next week, I´d love to have look at it. ;-)
I will do. I must admit that I only own a copy of this book, made more than 10 years ago... .
Regards,
Stefan
Fotohuis said:
Do you mean that AM74 works better than D76 because it is a liquid developer??? D76 seems to be very liquid to me too
Most is water, but as you know, you have regular water and holy water
Robert
Hi !
I'm re reading a copy of "Enlarging" by C.I. Jacobson and Jacobson. This book exists since 1940's... and it state that most old fashioned films where made of two or more emulsions, one fine grain low sensitivity, the other coarse grain, fast. They also state that all dev., given enough time will act on the two layers, and give optimum results in both speed and contrast. So I wonder what's so "new" and "so good" in cube film ? fear that D76/ID11 does not act on the lower emlulsions, dilute it and let the film soak for longer... I think it should work fine.
It is my feeling that Rollei R3 is an attempt to create, as in "high end" audio market, some marketing hype to provide big income to some happy fews.
I still look forward to see stunning picts made with this film.
I'm re reading a copy of "Enlarging" by C.I. Jacobson and Jacobson. This book exists since 1940's... and it state that most old fashioned films where made of two or more emulsions, one fine grain low sensitivity, the other coarse grain, fast. They also state that all dev., given enough time will act on the two layers, and give optimum results in both speed and contrast. So I wonder what's so "new" and "so good" in cube film ? fear that D76/ID11 does not act on the lower emlulsions, dilute it and let the film soak for longer... I think it should work fine.
It is my feeling that Rollei R3 is an attempt to create, as in "high end" audio market, some marketing hype to provide big income to some happy fews.
I still look forward to see stunning picts made with this film.
If you believe in BMW and Mercedes (or Rollei), order 50 pcs (I prefer at Fotohuis) and try.
If you believe in an alternative way for producing film and high quality on most modern material try this R3, but only one on 135-36, and try it in AM74 and CG 512 and compare it with the films you were using before.
Till now, only some (boring) tests to find out how it should work.
I made some pictures in the snow here in Ravenstein, nothing special, just with a Ricoh GR21 compact camera, lens is OK but 35mm format and I will try to upload it later on the internet.
Best regards,
Robert
If you believe in an alternative way for producing film and high quality on most modern material try this R3, but only one on 135-36, and try it in AM74 and CG 512 and compare it with the films you were using before.
Till now, only some (boring) tests to find out how it should work.
I made some pictures in the snow here in Ravenstein, nothing special, just with a Ricoh GR21 compact camera, lens is OK but 35mm format and I will try to upload it later on the internet.
Best regards,
Robert
Some examples are on photo.net.
Here is the link: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00B8xy
For any feed back, you're welcome.
best regards,
Robert
Here is the link: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00B8xy
For any feed back, you're welcome.
best regards,
Robert
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