Pyro in hand, but what film?

[NikoSperi]

Recently restocked the supplies cabinet with all the papers, devs and fixers... and while I was shopping I picked up a Pyro Kit from BWork. (Incidentally, not one item missing from the order because of unavailablility including Kentmere, Forte, Ilford... except Kodak with no Dektol, no stop, no farmers reducer)
I've never tried this, but have seen some extraordinary results here, and many swearing by their Pyrogallol...

What kind of film would be better suited to this development, for my first try? It seems to give quite a long straight portion (talking from my scientific testing of looking at your webshots :rolleyes: ) and think it might be better with a punchy film like Tri-X rather than one that's already quite long toned such as FP4...

Given the weather and the fact that I live in the armpit of northern Italy, test subject will be indoor portraits and still lifes - using either daylight (if we get any) or strobes.

Any suggestions or tips?

 

[noseoil]

Which kit? PMK Pyro or Pyrocat-HD? Don't expect the earth to move, but I would try a film like FP4 as a starter. It can give good results. Efke 100 is also a nice film with pyro developers. Since you will be using strobes, play around with sbr's and development time to get a feel for the film. Natural light will be a bit different. tim

 

[NikoSperi]

Thxs Tim. I may have jumped the gun with my question , as I'm sifting through the past threads and getting some answers; sounds like it'll be my favorite FP4 which is good because I know it best with my usual workflow.

Reading is however also raising other questions however. I develop in the kitchen sink, but read that for one pyro is much more toxic, and two - the fact that it stains everything might get me divorced if I artfully "redecorate" the stainless steel sink?
Is kitchen sink a bad idea?

Oh, forgot... I see tons or references for the Pyrocat and the PMK kits. I have neither, or at least it's not branded that way. BWork makes this little kit with Part A and Part B and an alkali fix. Dilutions are given as 1:1:200 (which is not what I'm getting at DigitalTruth for PMK)...
FWIW, the kit gives starting times which are e.g. 8.5 minutes for FP4 exposed at 125.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Thxs Tim. I may have jumped the gun with my question , as I'm sifting through the past threads and getting some answers; sounds like it'll be my favorite FP4 which is good because I know it best with my usual workflow.

Reading is however also raising other questions however. I develop in the kitchen sink, but read that for one pyro is much more toxic, and two - the fact that it stains everything might get me divorced if I artfully "redecorate" the stainless steel sink?
Is kitchen sink a bad idea?

Oh, forgot... I see tons or references for the Pyrocat and the PMK kits. I have neither, or at least it's not branded that way. BWork makes this little kit with Part A and Part B and an alkali fix. Dilutions are given as 1:1:200 (which is not what I'm getting at DigitalTruth for PMK)...
FWIW, the kit gives starting times which are e.g. 8.5 minutes for FP4 exposed at 125.

Niko, I looked on the BWork web site and performed a Google search. I could find No Information about the recipe or the Material Safety Data Sheets for this developer. Also, I could not find any sensitometric data about the perfomance of this developer with films like Ilford FP4+, Kodak TMY or Efke PL100. I would not waste my time using a developer that does not provide the data I have listed.

There are many tested and published recipes with supporting development data for Pyrogallol and Pyrocatechin developers that document the sensitometric behavior of many different films in thse developers.

There are also many sources - worldwide - for dry powder and premixed liquid versions of extensively tested recipes like Pyrocat-HD and PMK.
Pyrogallol, Pyrocatechin and Hydroquinone are most hazardous to human health as dry chemical dust. Once the chemicals are In solution, the human health hazard potential is much lower - if you protect your skin and mucous membranes and don't drink the solutions.

Look on APUG for Sandy King's recent posts on PyroCat-HD.

 

[NikoSperi]

Thanks Tom and Nose.
I tried it yesterday as a natural light portrait session improvised itself. I didn't have that much light so I ditched the FP4 for some Tri-X exposed at 800. I wasn't expecting anthing good out of the rolls, so I said what-the-hell, lets soup them up in the pyro.

Had to take their time of 10 minutes for 400TX@400 as gospel, and went for 14 minutes for the extra stop. Looks alright, but I'm guessing pyro not a great speed-enhancing developer?
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

All in all, enjoy what I see so far even if the process is messier. Will have to try shooting some slower film in contrastier light to see what happens. Thanks for the help, as always!

 

[craigclu]

Niko, Most Pyro based developers that I've played with seem to give up a stop from box speed to show their good points... I'd do some testing, starting at 64 for FP4+ and 200 for Tri-X to get an idea of what the developer is capable of. I'm pretty certain you ended up with pretty sooty looking shadows on that first roll? I'm not familiar at all with what you're using there so take what I say as a knee-jerk sort of response!

 

[NikoSperi]

I'm pretty certain you ended up with pretty sooty looking shadows on that first roll?

Bingo... at least as far as I can tell from a neg scan. (For those that don't know me, I get to visit my darkroom about every two months, so bear with me and the neg scans - the prints are coming later). Can't quite tell whether it's down to the one-stop push, or the dev, or probably both. But frankly, given the light I was shooting in, I was really not expecting anything this nice.

I'll try my FP4...

Still trying to figure out what "kit" the BWork is...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Bear in mind that in all likelihood, that was more like a 2 - 2 1/2 stop push, not a 1 stop push. Pyro developers are very good for doing expansion/contraction development, but you need to do some basic testing to establish a good working EI for your film. I would strongly suggest what others have recommended and getting either the PMK or Pyrocat HD kits.

As to the staining of your sink, the developer will not stain a stainless steel sink, at least not in the duration of time it is in that sink. Mostly, it stains film, or if spilled on clothing and not washed off in a reasonable time frame, the clothes will also be stained. Get yourself some nitrile gloves (available at most pharmacies) to be on the safe side. The negative health effects of the chemicals in Pyro are very long-term, unless you consume it in large quantities undiluted. This is not to say that they are not serious, but the occasional contact with them in working dilutions is not problematic. If you were to get your hands immersed in pyro concentrate for hours a day, every working day, eventually you would develop liver failure and neurological problems. Eventually being 30+ years of exposure at those concentrations on a daily basis. There are plenty of other chemicals you work with in photography that are just as nasty long-term, but you don't worry about. Hardening fixers contain sulfuric acid; many sepia toners involve potassium ferricyanate, which if mixed improperly can form cyanide gas. Archaic processes are even nastier: wet-plate collodion involves nitrocellulose, ether, hydrochloric acid and cyanide, and daguerrotypes use mercury and iodine vapors. I'll take my chances with Pyrogallic acid any day in comparison to those processes.

 

[sanking]

Had to take their time of 10 minutes for 400TX@400 as gospel, and went for 14 minutes for the extra stop. Looks alright, but I'm guessing pyro not a great speed-enhancing developer?
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Virtually all modern pyro formulas which contain either pyrogallol or pyrocatechin in combination with a secondary superadditive reducer deliver full emulsion speed when the comparison is to the standard of D76. Some of the older formulas, ABC Pyro for example, which contains pyrogallol with no secondary reducer, do cause a slight loss in effective film speed.

There is a great deal of misinformation in the forums and in print about developers and film speed, and this is due quite simply to the fact that most people lack the skills and/or equipment to test for it. The plain fact of the matter is that accurate comparisons of EFS that result from choice of develoepr can only be determined with sensitometry, and good sensitometry at that, where one is able to repeat exposures with a high degree of accuracy, and to repeat density in development with an error or no more than about log 0.03 in the shadow values, which is about 1/10 of a stop. Test yourself by contact printing and developing a step wedge in your own facility and measuring the result with a densitometer.

Sandy

 

[NikoSperi]

Thank you everyone on this... A few points more, if I may, about this until I get a chance to print some.

Alot here have said, ditch the kit and use a tried and tested PMK or Pyrocat HD. The fact is, in an anglo-centric web, that's easier said than done. I get the BWork kit from my wonderful and favorite B&W supplier right here in Italy - Fotomatica. They are competitive, professional, next door, and carry this kit. I don't really feel the need to start importing PMK or pyrocat from across the world anymore than you far-siders want to start shipping chemicals into the US - the cost and hassle factors aren't worth it.

The BWork kit itself, after reading about some of the nastiness of pyrogallol in powder form, is convenient and easy to mix: 250ml of part A and B, and 500ml of alkali fixer for 5 liters of developer and fix.
For the chemists:
Part A:
Sodium Metabisulfate (2-3%)
Pyrogallol (1-2%)
Part B:
Sodium Carbonate (1-5%)
Fix:
Ammonium Tiosulfate (45-55%)
Sodium Sulfate (2-3%)

Doesn't seem to correspond to Pyrocat, but is closer to PMK...

As for EFS and sensitometry, I though in reading up that densitometry became difficult if not irrelevant with pyro because of the stain. Not entirely clear to me, but the graded/VC paper suitability derives from this unquantifiable effect the stain has on density and on light/color transmission.

I am really really far from being the type that's bothered by 1/10th of a stop. It's like talking computers and saying a 2Ghz processor will perform this task in 12 nanoseconds, versus that 1.8Ghz which will.... I'm still learning cut and paste so there are other things orders of magnitude away that need addressing first.

 

[sanking]

Niko,

The BWork pyro kit looks to be an old style formula in that it uses only one reducer. It should be a nice sharp formula, but compared to formulas such as PMK and Pyrocat-HD it will give less speed, at least 1/4 stop and with some films as much as 1/2 stop.

BTW, you were the one who brought up speed so I assumed you were interested in comments on it. My point was that you see a lot of so-called experts on the forums and in print comparing EFS, when they themselves are not capable of measuring it. As such, my comments were primarily a call for skepticism in the face of so many outlandish claims that we see being made for the speed enhancing capabilities of developers. With some rare exceptions most of these claims are not supported by the facts if we evaluate films with good sensitometry. I apologize for boring you with comments about sensitometry that are of no interest to you

And BTW, you can purchase both PMK and Pyrocat-HD kits from Lotus Camera, located right in the heart of Europe in Austria.

Sandy

Thank you everyone on this... A few points more, if I may, about this until I get a chance to print some.

Alot here have said, ditch the kit and use a tried and tested PMK or Pyrocat HD. The fact is, in an anglo-centric web, that's easier said than done. I get the BWork kit from my wonderful and favorite B&W supplier right here in Italy - Fotomatica. They are competitive, professional, next door, and carry this kit. I don't really feel the need to start importing PMK or pyrocat from across the world anymore than you far-siders want to start shipping chemicals into the US - the cost and hassle factors aren't worth it.

The BWork kit itself, after reading about some of the nastiness of pyrogallol in powder form, is convenient and easy to mix: 250ml of part A and B, and 500ml of alkali fixer for 5 liters of developer and fix.
For the chemists:
Part A:
Sodium Metabisulfate (2-3%)
Pyrogallol (1-2%)
Part B:
Sodium Carbonate (1-5%)
Fix:
Ammonium Tiosulfate (45-55%)
Sodium Sulfate (2-3%)

Doesn't seem to correspond to Pyrocat, but is closer to PMK...

As for EFS and sensitometry, I though in reading up that densitometry became difficult if not irrelevant with pyro because of the stain. Not entirely clear to me, but the graded/VC paper suitability derives from this unquantifiable effect the stain has on density and on light/color transmission.

I am really really far from being the type that's bothered by 1/10th of a stop. It's like talking computers and saying a 2Ghz processor will perform this task in 12 nanoseconds, versus that 1.8Ghz which will.... I'm still learning cut and paste so there are other things orders of magnitude away that need addressing first.

 

[NikoSperi]

Sandy,

Thanks for the reply which au contraire interests me very much. My point was that I am one of those unable to effectively measure 0.1 above fb; I can only try using either a scanner, or my spot meter on a lightbox and neither way seems to work terribly well. So given what I'm able to measure, if I get to within a half stop, I'm usually happy!

As for my personal EI... well, like I said, it's a seat-of-my-pants eyeballing the negative and seeing how the scanner reacts. In a month or two I'll get it under my enlarger, so all in all quite the opposite of scientific.

I am very happy that in some places, such as here, there are people amply qualified to help me out with such things - and I'm very lucky that people such as you take the time to help along newbies like me... again and again! Thank you, very sincerely.

I'll look into Lotus Camera.

Saluti,
N

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Thank you everyone on this... A few points more, if I may, about this until I get a chance to print some.

Alot here have said, ditch the kit and use a tried and tested PMK or Pyrocat HD. The fact is, in an anglo-centric web, that's easier said than done. I get the BWork kit from my wonderful and favorite B&W supplier right here in Italy - Fotomatica. They are competitive, professional, next door, and carry this kit. I don't really feel the need to start importing PMK or pyrocat from across the world anymore than you far-siders want to start shipping chemicals into the US - the cost and hassle factors aren't worth it.

The BWork kit itself, after reading about some of the nastiness of pyrogallol in powder form, is convenient and easy to mix: 250ml of part A and B, and 500ml of alkali fixer for 5 liters of developer and fix.
For the chemists:
Part A:
Sodium Metabisulfate (2-3%)
Pyrogallol (1-2%)
Part B:
Sodium Carbonate (1-5%)
Fix:
Ammonium Tiosulfate (45-55%)
Sodium Sulfate (2-3%)

Doesn't seem to correspond to Pyrocat, but is closer to PMK...

As for EFS and sensitometry, I though in reading up that densitometry became difficult if not irrelevant with pyro because of the stain. Not entirely clear to me, but the graded/VC paper suitability derives from this unquantifiable effect the stain has on density and on light/color transmission.

I am really really far from being the type that's bothered by 1/10th of a stop. It's like talking computers and saying a 2Ghz processor will perform this task in 12 nanoseconds, versus that 1.8Ghz which will.... I'm still learning cut and paste so there are other things orders of magnitude away that need addressing first.

Good to see that you now have the Material Safety Data Sheet for the BW developer and fix. However, it appears to contain some typographic errors:
1.Part A:
Sodium Metabisulfate (2-3%)

Should be Sodium MetaBISULFITE

---------------------------------

Fix:
Ammonium Tiosulfate (45-55%)

Should be Ammonium THIOSULFATE


Sodium Sulfate (2-3%)

Should be Sodium SULFITE

--------------------------------

Maybe Fotomatica has sensitometric data for their Pyro developer in combination with various films that they can supply to you.


You also said: "I don't really feel the need to start importing PMK or pyrocat from across the world ." No need to do that - just ask Fotomatica to make some for you.


Or, you can buy PMK or Pyrocat-HD from one of the premix suppliers in the EU (like Lotus). Then you could take advantage of the large body of sensitometric and user data that exists for these 2 developers

 

[NikoSperi]

Thanks Tom, and apologies as I should have specified that the chemicals were my translation from italian... and I failed chemistry many many years ago. :rolleyes:

 

[NikoSperi]

Hardening fixers contain sulfuric acid; many sepia toners involve potassium ferricyanate, which if mixed improperly can form cyanide gas. Archaic processes are even nastier: wet-plate collodion involves nitrocellulose, ether, hydrochloric acid and cyanide, and daguerrotypes use mercury and iodine vapors.

Remind me again... how come so many have abandoned film for digital?

or... "If it were easy (or safe)... it'd be called digital."

Just did my FP4 - some strobes and some outdoors where the clouds rolled in depriving me of my contrasty light test. They look amazingly sharp!