Problem with pinholes in Adox/Efke 50

sandermarijn · May 24, 2009

I keep having problems with small holes in the emulsion of Adox CHS 50. Initially I thought that these 'pinholes' came from my being too rough on the film, but the pinholes keep reoccuring despite being more careful now (I don't touch the emulsion at all anymore).

I wonder if these pinholes are the result of poor manufacturing or if there is something else wrong. The thing is, I have read about other people having problems with the Adox/Efke films, but there are also many people who don't seem to have any problems. Although it is possible that some production batches would be worse, it seems unlikely that the good and poor batches would always end up with the same people.

Therefore I have been trying to find remaining faults in my film processing. I found an interesting suggestion on a site called Dead Link Removed. It says the following there:

"The best piece of advice I was ever given was to keep the developing process alkaline. Most fixers are acid and on some of the older/softer emulsions like Efke/Adox can cause pinholes in the emulsion or worse."

I have already discarded of the acidic stop bath I normally use. Could it be that using a neutral fixer rids the pinholes once and for all? Does anybody have any experience with this problem? I'm thinking of ordering some pH-neutral fixer (FotoImpex have, from Rollei). Anybody else use special fixer with Adox CHS films?

Ian Grant · May 24, 2009

Many fixers have relatively mild pH's - Ilford Hypam/Rapid fixer is between 5.2-5.4, however stop baths can br pH 3. I've never had pinholeproblems with Adox/EFKE 25 and I've been using it for over 30 years. always with Hypam.

You could use a Pyro developer PMK or Pyrocat HD, these have a tanning/hardening effect on the emulsion.

Ian

tim_bessell · May 24, 2009

I have been using Efke PL50 4x5 with a water stop bath and Photographers Formulary TF-4 (an alkaline fixer) and have not seen any pinholes. There are several alkaline fixer and a neutral fixer formula in the "Articles" section under "Chem Recipes" here on APUG if you want to test some mixed from scratch.

I have noticed that Kodak TMX, if used with a water stop and TF-4 causes a brown scum to form on the surface of the film. I never tested to find out if it was my tap water causing this problem, just beware.

sandermarijn · May 24, 2009

Thanks Ian. To be honest I'm not sure if my current fixer is all that acidic. I use Amaloco X89 or Adolux Adofix. Would those be more acidic than Hypam? I could get a bottle of Hypam just for the Adox ART films of course. A pH of 5.3 isn't completely neutral, but if Hypam has worked for you for 30 years then it should for me too.

I am not so keen on changing developer; rodinal 1+100 works great for me.

Maybe I've just been having poor luck so far with Adox 50 and pinholes. I've shot only 12 films of it; all from a monday morning batch perhaps?

sandermarijn · May 24, 2009

Thanks Tim. I could mix my own fixer but getting the raw ingredients would be more hassle than just ordering from FotoImpex, for me at least. I'm not much of a chemist and prefer ready-for-use liquids.
My current workflow (no presoak, develop, stop with water or mild acid, fix with Amaloco or Adox fixer) has never given problems with films other than Adox CHS. I used to squeegee my film before drying, but Adox CHS has taught me to stop doing that.

Ian Grant · May 24, 2009

Many of my 5x4 Adox Pl 25 negatives were processed in Rodinal with a water stop then Hypam, a pH of 5.3 is a very weak acid, some fixers can be pH 4 or even 3 which is substantially more acidic. You'd need to check the manufacturers MSDS sheets they have to include the pH.

Ian

sandermarijn · May 24, 2009

I tried to find data for my fixers, but Amaloco is gone and Adox doesn't have anything specific on their site. The pH of a neutral fixer by Moersch (Moersch ATS, FotoImpex have but not in stock) is 7.8, so slightly alkaline. I will try either a neutral fixer (Rollei or Moersch) or Hypam (or something else with a documented neutral pH).

RobertV · May 24, 2009

You can go for the citric stop (Amaloco S-10) 1+19 which is 2% to 1+29 which is a weaker stop bath.

The X89 (Amaloco) is a neutral fix, pH is 6,2
This fix you can also use with "staining" developers.

If you have a reel developement and have no physical contact with your film you do not need a hardener. However to harden the (soft) film in the final stage you can make a wetting agent with 1% Formaline. (10ml of 37% in a liter wetting agent).

If the pinholes (coating problem) are there, this will not help either but after drying the soft emulsion of Efke can have something more and it's an easy step to harden the film without extended wash times.

DannL · May 24, 2009

A problem that I experienced recently was pinholes while using efke PL 100 M sheet film in a plate camera. The cause I calculated was that the film had a different electrical (static) charge as compared to the metal plate holders. And the holders were very old. When I loaded film into these holders and/or when I pulled the darkside out to make an exposure, I suspect microscopic particles of dust, grit, paint, rust, felt, etc would fall and stick to the surface of the film. Upon exposure all that grit on the film surface would block the light. Once cleared by fixing those areas appear as pinholes of all varying shapes and sizes. I'm not shooting 9x12 now, but I am using efke sheet film in 4x5. I get very few pinholes, if any, now that I am using newer plastic holders. Just some thoughts for consideration.

I recall this trouble with an old folder but using Ilford 120 roll film. The same trouble caused by grit and dirt particles in the inner compartment of the bellows area. A good vacuuming and cleaning helped, but it was no cure.

sandermarijn · May 24, 2009

Thanks for your very useful information Robert. With a pH of 6.2 the fixer shouldn't be the cause of my pinholes. Which leaves me at a bit of a loss. Maybe I have just been unlucky with the film that I got. The only way to find out will be to get some more film I guess (from a different production batch) and try again.

Silly question: where can I get this 'formaline'? In the drugstore maybe? I just read on Wikipedia that this stuff is not so good for us people. Is it safe to use as an amateur who has no active ventilation in his darkroom? I would like to harden Adox 50 once and see what that does.

Thanks for the suggestion also about grit/dust Dann. I am quite careful with keeping my cameras (Bessa R2A and Contax G1) clean inside. There may be a bit of dust here and there now and then, but it should never be enough to explain the pinholes.

I do like Adox 50 a lot and I will keep using it (scenery mostly). It has a wonderful not-at-all modern look that I have not found in any other film. I have only used Rodinal for it so far. From what I read here and in other places this developer is a much-liked match for Adox 50. I may try the film in D76 some time, just out of curiosity.

RobertV · May 24, 2009

where can I get this 'formaline'

You can get it in the pharmacy (apotheek) but indeed it's nasty stuff. You need protective eye glass, gloves plus very good vertilation. Formaline (sterk water) is cancer suspected.

Alternative you can use a hardener fix (or make the fix by additional chemical a hardener type) but then you need 3x the regular wash time for the film. Unnecesary when doing a reel development.

A moderate pH can never be the cause of pinholes. You need a strong acid (wrong concentration stop) to have film damage.

If you want you can sent me a film:
One unexposed to check out it's a coating problem or not and to treat with hardener (formaline) in the wettig agent step.

Efke 25 - 50 and Rodinal is a good combination although Beutler (1+1+10) was especially made for these single layer films in the 50's. Beutler is a high definition developer. The acutance is even higher then with Rodinal 1+50 or 1+100.

JPD · May 24, 2009

I agree with Alessandro. I haven't bought Efke 120-films for a couple of years now, because I hate their curl. Which is too bad since I love the emulsions. The distributors should put pressure on Efke.

I have a couple of Efke PL boxes, though. 25 ORT, 25, 50 and 100.

mikebarger · May 24, 2009

I to had the pin hole (120 and 4x5) and curl problem (120). I used water bath and non acid fix from PF TF-4.

Made my fling with cheap film short, gave away the remainder, and went back to Kodak in 120 and Ilford HP5 in 4x5. It is amazing in this day that QC can be so spotty.

Haven't looked back.

Mike

DannL · May 24, 2009

sandermarijn said:
. . .

Thanks for the suggestion also about grit/dust Dann. I am quite careful with keeping my cameras (Bessa R2A and Contax G1) clean inside. There may be a bit of dust here and there now and then, but it should never be enough to explain the pinholes.

See, I knew we'd locate the problem. It's those miniature format cameras.

Michael W · May 24, 2009

I also had pinholes in 120 Efke 50 using a water stop & Kodak fix. I don't think it's the processing, it's poor quality control. Haven't used this film since, the last thing I need is pinholes across someone's face when I'm doing portraiture.

sandermarijn · May 25, 2009

RobertV said:
If you want you can sent me a film:
One unexposed to check out it's a coating problem or not and to treat with hardener (formaline) in the wettig agent step.

Thanks Robert, that's a nice offer. I will think about it. At the moment I have only two Adox 50 films left. I think I want to use those for some more play of my own. After that I will order some more Efke of Adox and see if that makes any difference. If I find myself totally stuck with the pinholes then I will send you a unexposed film to see if you have different results. Thanks a lot.

The formalin sounds too toxic for me to use. Perhaps I will get some hardening fixer. I have never tried any. The only disadvanatage seems to be that one has to fix longer. I don't suppose the hardened negatives will scan or print any different? The hardening layer does not dramatically obscure or 'blur' the image?

I have quite many developers in my darkroom now. Two years ago I got bored with digital and picked up my analogue photography again (have a darkroom since '96). In the old days I used Ilfosol S for almost everything. Now I have been trying more developers and films. The result is a shelf full of bottles and a fridge with too much film. I have found some combinations that I like. All of them involve Rodinal. (They are APX100 in Rodinal 1+25 or 1+50 depending on camera and contrast, Neopan 400 in Rodinal 1+50, and Adox 50 in Rodinal 1+100).

What I like about Rodinal is not so much its sharpness, but rather its tonality. I have not found the same lovely tones with any other developer. The sharpness comes as just a bonus to me. I am a bit reluctant to add any more developers to my collection. (That collection is Rodinal, D76, FX39, HRX3, Ilfosol 3.) I find myself coming back to Rodinal again and again; I think I want to stick to that for the time being.

sandermarijn · May 25, 2009

JPD said:
I haven't bought Efke 120-films for a couple of years now, because I hate their curl.

I have only used it in 35mm. I would like to try it in my ugly old Rolleiflex but the stories of curl have scared me away from that so far. I find there is some 'longitudinal curl' with the 35mm format; would this be much worse in 120? Does it curl so badly that it makes several loopings on itself or is it just that the one end stands up a bit when you hold the other?

sandermarijn · May 25, 2009

goldie said:
I don't think it's the processing, it's poor quality control.

I'm still in a phase of denial. Let's hope I'll stay there.

JPD · May 25, 2009

sandermarijn said:
I have only used it in 35mm. I would like to try it in my ugly old Rolleiflex but the stories of curl have scared me away from that so far. I find there is some 'longitudinal curl' with the 35mm format; would this be much worse in 120? Does it curl so badly that it makes several loopings on itself or is it just that the one end stands up a bit when you hold the other?

For me the 120-films curl to a long "cut open tube", and not into a spiral. The strips do flatten out somewhat after some time in my negative binder.

They lay flat in the enlarger, though. It's just irritating. I wonder why Fotokemika isn't doing something about it? People have complained about this for years.

The curl looks like this:

clayne · May 25, 2009

sandermarijn said:
What I like about Rodinal is not so much its sharpness, but rather its tonality. I have not found the same lovely tones with any other developer. The sharpness comes as just a bonus to me. I am a bit reluctant to add any more developers to my collection. (That collection is Rodinal, D76, FX39, HRX3, Ilfosol 3.) I find myself coming back to Rodinal again and again; I think I want to stick to that for the time being.

Not to change the focus of the thread, but: PMK.

sandermarijn · May 26, 2009

clayne said:
Not to change the focus of the thread, but: PMK.

So much to try and so little time. I will eventually come to try a staining developer; I have never used them before and am quite curious as there seem to be many fans of this type of developer.

RobertV · May 26, 2009

The advantage of a pyro (staining) developer in 35mm is limited.
In the NL you have (easy) access to AM50 (a non staining pyrocatechine) developer and some developers of Moersch (e.g. Finol) a modified PMK.

The question is: When scanning is there any advantage of a staining developer at all? Or do you have only advantages when doing a wet print? (=high definition, sharpness, and less grain (hidden by the colorized negative.))

jgjbowen · May 26, 2009

Just a thought for the OP....you are using distilled H2O in all your chemicals???? You could have a contaminant in your tap water that is causing the pinholes!

sandermarijn · May 26, 2009

RobertV said:
The question is: When scanning is there any advantage of a staining developer at all? Or do you have only advantages when doing a wet print? (=high definition, sharpness, and less grain (hidden by the colorized negative.))

That's exactly what I have been asking myself after reading the poduct descriptions of some staining developers (from Moersch Tanol to be precise). From that I understand that the advantage is only there in the wet print, in that the stain hides the grain and makes the highlights easier the print (with multigrade paper). I wonder how significant these effects are. Is it worth it? And would there be any disadvantage to staining one's negatives?

I think I actually did try the AM50 once, about ten years ago. Is AM50 the stuff that comes in small brown plastic cylinders with a white cap? I recently found these cylinders in my darkroom drawer and decided to dispose of them because I didn't trust the contents after so many years. But I don't recall if it said AM50 on these small bottles.
I remember that I used AM50 with Delta 100, which gave very sharp results. This film was shot in winter in dull weather, so I can't judge other properties very well. Maybe I should have to try it (AM50) or something similar again once.

sandermarijn · May 26, 2009

jgjbowen said:
Just a thought for the OP....you are using distilled H2O in all your chemicals???? You could have a contaminant in your tap water that is causing the pinholes!

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't use distilled water for any of my chemicals, just tap water (I do use distilled water for the final rinse). The water in the area where I live is very rich in minerals. Apart from that I wouldn't know of any significant contaminants. I don't think these minerals can cause pinholes.

Problem with pinholes in Adox/Efke 50

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