Printing digi negs on Pictorico on P900 with 'vertical banding'

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LaniD

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Hello, does anyone know of the 'vertical banding' issue that can happen in digi negs especially on pictorico film for platinum palladium prints? I got it (vertical stripes in my sky) and in light solid areas and Epson told me to get the ICC profile from Pictorico and install it and that should solve the issue. The fellow there said he sees this problem and using the correct ICC profile should solve the problem. Does anyone happen to have the icc profile for pictorico and fixxons?
 

koraks

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get the ICC profile from Pictorico

I don't see how that would solve a banding problem. I think maybe the Epson rep misunderstood the problem and was thinking of posterization, or they simply don't understand very well how this problem works.

The problem with the banding you mention (I think I recognize it) is a fundamental alignment issue that's basically impossible to solve. You can work around it by using more color channels at the same time (c.f. piezography), which will effectively 'smudge away' the problem. This is because the inkjet nozzles are arranged in a distinct, geometrical pattern and evenness of tone is achieved by jetting quasi-random dot patterns from the nozzles of several channels. If you print on regular paper, ink bleed is crucial in making tone appear evenly. OHP film doesn't have as much ink bleed (the droplets basically stay right where they land, with sharp edges).

How are you printing your digital negatives - i.e. from which app(s) and with which settings? I generally use QTR which allows you to make custom curves that use several channels at the same time. Using e.g. Mk, LK, and Y at the same time may help.

There's a bit of a tradeoff when it comes to using multiple inkjet channels:
* The more channels you use, the more volume of ink (=water, mostly) is deposited onto the film. OHP film will only take so much ink before it starts to pool and dry up in ugly patterns (or not at all), so there's in practice a limit to how much optical density you can make with channels that give relatively little blocking power (e.g. LLK, C, M).
* The fewer channels you use, the coarser the tonality and the bigger the problems with banding/striping etc. will be.
Try to strike the best compromise by combining as many channels together as feasible without running into ink pooling problems. This will be easier for processes that require not too high density; in this case you're in luck with your Pt/Pd prints as they only require something like 1.8logD (off the top of my head). Things get much trickier with salt e.g. prints that like 2.2logD, which makes it harder to get smooth tonal rendition.

I feel that getting even tonality is the one, major tricky aspect of inkjet digital negatives, and to be frank, I find the problem such a nuisance that I just cannot actually enjoy printmaking from inkjet negatives. It always ends up as a disappointment, at least in my hands and within my expectations.

Here's a snippet from a carbon transfer step tablet test; it's an imperfect transfer onto glass (note the broken line on the right), but it demonstrates the problem IMO.
1721110239533.png

The Stouffer step tablet to the left is a silver gelatin negative, basically. The 3-column step tablet to the right is a DIY one inkjet printed on my Epson 3880 using the MK, LK and Y channels (it's not linearized). You can already see the coarseness in the mid-grey steps in the bottom half of the rightmost column.

Here's a closer look at that bit:
1721110378938.png

Note that this also has banding and that the rendering is rather coarse. By comparison, this is a section from the Stouffer tablet at the same magnification:
1721110432791.png


Now, I know I could get matters to improve at least a little by buying a new printer (€1k and upwards), convert it to piezography (IDK what that costs now - if it's technically possible to begin with on these newer printers; maybe starting at €700 or so?). But the improvement would still be marginal IMO.

Sorry about the rant. I can only say I sympathize with your problem. There are probably things you can do to improve matters somewhat. The use of a different ICC profile likely is not going to solve this problem.
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Hello and thank you so much for replying. I appreciate your rant and I'm right there with you and about at my wits end with this (plus I"m still a novice) and the last problem I had with this P900 printer that never went away and I just print around it. The fellow I talked to at Epson may have misunderstood as he was the second person I asked to talk to as the first didn't understand. What it sounds like you're telling me is a new printer won't really help as I may end up with the same problem.

Attached is one of the negatives this is happening on so we're on the same page. You can see the 'vertical banding' in the sky which looks like light streaks.

I use photoshop to print and Bostick and Sullivan's pt/pd curve and many are color images converted to b and w unless they're 4x5. Plus this banding seems to have just started a week ago although it may have been there it takes a certain image to really see it on the neg.

It's a little hard to see the banding on your step wedge can you send it w an arrow? Also I'm wondering if Fixxons is a little less sharp so maybe it doesn't show as much?

View attachment 374088
 

koraks

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It's a little hard to see the banding on your step wedge can you send it w an arrow?

I'm sorry, it's pretty hard to tell. I 'printed around it' by using 3 channels as much as I could. This snippet at 100% shows it a little:
1721145077505.png

Note the faint horizontal lines. If I had printed a landscape image with a sky, the lines would have run vertically through the image as well. I think what you're seeing basically a more pronounced version of what I'm showing here. I had much better examples, but not too long ago I discarded a huge pile of test strips.

The degree to which this shows up is highly specific to the channels used to print the B&W negative and the average density. It's essentially an interference pattern that emerges due to the optical interaction between the individual lines of inkjet dots. A further exacerbating problem is the way the paper is transported underneath the head; this happens with tiny little increments (it's a 'jerky' motion, not continuous). Slight imperfections in this motion can exacerbate the banding since the passes of the inkjet head will overlap ever so slightly on one side and be distanced too far on the other side. I don't know how the P900 manages this, but if there's an "alignment" option in the printer maintenance dialog, try to use it.

Come to think of it, I did once purchase a service tool for Epson printers and I think it unlocked some options related to this. Not that it made one bit of difference...

Also I'm wondering if Fixxons is a little less sharp so maybe it doesn't show as much?

That's not really it; I've compared a couple of these transparency films and sharpness didn't really matter much at all. They differed slightly in terms of how much ink they'll hold until it starts pooling. Pictorico and Fixxons do better in this regard than the cheap, generic OHP film I used here. In terms of detail, it's all pretty much the same - unless you start throwing way too much ink onto it, in which case you get funny edges etc.
This is a 100% crop from a 2400dpi scan of the same image above:
1721145513196.png

You can actually count the individual inkjet dots (which, in fact, is the root cause of the whole problem to begin with...). The slight fuzziness is mostly due to the flatbed scanner and a very slight contact problem when making this print because I was sandwiching two overlapping negatives on top of each other, which degraded the contact between the carbon tissue and the negative a bit. In this section it's not so bad though.

Compare to a section of the Stouffer at the same magnification:
1721145613883.png

If you look closely, you see a slight dot-like modulation, which in fact is the mushy way the scanner renders the film grain on the Stouffer step wedge...if I take a good loupe to this plate, the grain actually renders quite sharply. But...film grain is truly stochastic, so it doesn't create the kind of banding problems you'll often run into with inkjet negatives.
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Hello again fixxons and pictorico don’t have icc profiles anymore just recommended settings such as premium glossy photo and the highest rez setting all of which I use. What printer are you using for your digi negs? I’m wondering if upgrading from the p900 may work…
 
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LaniD

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Thank you. I'll look for that in the utility. That has crossed my mind.
 

koraks

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When I get banding, I do a head alignment, and Bob's your uncle.

Yeah, it's worth a try. On my old 3880 in Windows it's in the printer settings dialog:
1721195204872.png

However, when I tried this while battling striping/banding issues, it never made a difference. Alignment was always 'optimal' already.

fixxons and pictorico don’t have icc profiles anymore just recommended settings such as premium glossy photo and the highest rez setting all of which I use.

Don't worry about the ICC profiles for a digital negative anyway. They're not really useful/necessary in that application.
I'm using an older 3880 btw; it's a much earlier product in the same lineup your printer is from.
You can use whatever settings you like with the transparency film. It'll take matte black as well as photo black ink.

In QTR, for digital negatives, I usually print at 1440dpi and use bi-directional printing. Try one-directional printing to see if it helps with the banding; it may make a slight difference. I never found any benefit in printing at 2880 dpi; it changes the dither pattern a little, but it doesn't get any better, nor do you get more detail. It does deposit more ink this way, so it'll affect whatever compensation curve you'll need to make. The gist is: use one resolution setting and stick with it. Here's what my typical QTR dialog looks like:
1721195560197.png

It doesn't show the actual compensation curve, but that's a different matter.

In the Epson print dialog, my settings may look something like this, if using Photo black:
1721195797084.png

Note the 'toning' option which basically creates a B&W print that also uses the Yellow channel for additional blocking power.
If you want to use the Matte ink, just select a Matte paper, like Enhanced Matte or Archival Matte.
My "quality options" dialog usually looks something like this:
1721195890282.png

You could juggle with the options a bit. There's usually not much quality difference between them.
* High speed is the bidirectional option; it determines whether the print head only prints when traveling in one direction, or if it prints while traveling in both directions. The latter is faster, but can introduce slight alignment issues. However, it will in general not cause the kind of banding you describe and I've always found the difference irrelevant.
* Edge Smoothing and Finest Detail are algorithm options that affect the dither pattern. You can play with them to optimize your negatives, but again, I don't expect either will remove the banding.

The Alignment option @Andrew O'Neill mentioned is the only one really worthwhile spending any time on, but as I said, it didn't help in my case. There are hardware tolerance limits for these printers and their parts, and they are sufficient for normal printing on regular paper, but we're pushing things way over the limit with our digital negatives. These printers were never made for this kind of thing, so it's a bit of a kludge in all honesty.
 
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LaniD

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Thank you for all of this amazing info. I'm going to print some negs on a p5000 tomorrow and see how it does again as it has done fine in the past - no weird marks. Ok I'll attack the alignment issue asap. Then I thought briefly maybe I could do a trade in w Epson with my p900 at full value for a new p5000 (if that works well tomorrow) at their price and pay the difference but found out its been discontinued for the 5300. Ufda.
 

koraks

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Frankly, I never really kept track of Epson's product line up - all I know is that printers I consider "brand spanking new" turn out to have been discontinued for years already!
 

nmp

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Hello and thank you so much for replying. I appreciate your rant and I'm right there with you and about at my wits end with this (plus I"m still a novice) and the last problem I had with this P900 printer that never went away and I just print around it. The fellow I talked to at Epson may have misunderstood as he was the second person I asked to talk to as the first didn't understand. What it sounds like you're telling me is a new printer won't really help as I may end up with the same problem.

Attached is one of the negatives this is happening on so we're on the same page. You can see the 'vertical banding' in the sky which looks like light streaks.

I use photoshop to print and Bostick and Sullivan's pt/pd curve and many are color images converted to b and w unless they're 4x5. Plus this banding seems to have just started a week ago although it may have been there it takes a certain image to really see it on the neg.

It's a little hard to see the banding on your step wedge can you send it w an arrow? Also I'm wondering if Fixxons is a little less sharp so maybe it doesn't show as much?

View attachment 374088

Your attachment is not coming through. Kind of hard to figure out what the problem is without a picture. Your first post also seemed to imply a picture but I can't seem to find it.

Also regarding P900 vs higher printer, there are good many people who have been using the P900 for very good work, so it should work perfectly well for you - in theory. You just have to tame its idiosyncrasies. I use a P400 like @Andrew O'Neill which is an even lower (and older) version of Epson SureColor series.

:Niranjan.
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Frankly, I never really kept track of Epson's product line up - all I know is that printers I consider "brand spanking new" turn out to have been discontinued for years already!

Yes, I"ve had that happen!
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Your attachment is not coming through. Kind of hard to figure out what the problem is without a picture. Your first post also seemed to imply a picture but I can't seem to find it.

Also regarding P900 vs higher printer, there are good many people who have been using the P900 for very good work, so it should work perfectly well for you - in theory. You just have to tame its idiosyncrasies. I use a P400 like @Andrew O'Neill which is an even lower (and older) version of Epson SureColor series.

:Niranjan.

Hello and thanks for the reply and I'm hopeful you're right. I may have gotten a lemon though as I've had another big issue as well. I'm going to keep trying to fix it and am re-attaching the neg that has the stripes in the sky...let me know if it comes through.

View attachment 374212
 

nmp

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Hello and thanks for the reply and I'm hopeful you're right. I may have gotten a lemon though as I've had another big issue as well. I'm going to keep trying to fix it and am re-attaching the neg that has the stripes in the sky...let me know if it comes through.

View attachment 374212
Nope...still the same problem. It takes me to an error page. I wonder what happens when you click on it or anyone else. Is it something on my end?

:Niranjan.
 

koraks

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I think Koraks opened it…

No, sorry; forgot to mention it. In both cases it doesn't work. I went into you post to check what's wrong, but couldn't find it. I sometimes get this if I insert an image and then delete it. Not sure what went wrong.
For posting pics, I generally just use the screenshot/snip tool (Windows; Mac has something comparable) and then just paste it directly into a post. Works OK from a desktop/laptop computer; doesn't work from a phone or tablet.
 
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LaniD

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Thanks for your replys and here is the digi neg please let me know if it goes thru or not.
Beach digi neg Oly Pen IMG_6953.jpg
 
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LaniD

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Also I ran digi negs on a P5000 today and they look lovely - no stripes or pizza wheel marks that I can tell although I haven't printed them yet 🤣
 

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Thanks for your replys and here is the digi neg please let me know if it goes thru or not.

It did, and I think I see banding in the sky.
 

koraks

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let me know if it goes thru

Yeah, it does!
There's definitely banding. See if the re-alignment fixes things.
Do you have a flatbed scanner? Maybe you could scan a small section of that negative at 1200dpi or so and post that here. The close-up may contain some clues.
 

nmp

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Now that we can see the picture.....you might want to do nozzle check as well if not already considered. Sometimes these type of density variations can occur if one or more of the nozzles are not firing or firing properly. Doing a basic head cleaning might help.

Also I ran digi negs on a P5000 today and they look lovely - no stripes or pizza wheel marks that I can tell although I haven't printed them yet 🤣

P5000 has a vacuum transport system which eschews the use of star wheels (except perhaps the last inch or so if I can remember from the reviews correctly.) Hence no pizza wheels on the negative. If I have to buy a new printer, I would probably go for a P5000 or its successor rather than the P900 - from what I have read about all the problems with the latter, particularly if I was printing regularly and in greater volume. The ink costs alone would pay for the higher upfront cost of the printer in the long run.

:Niranjan
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Thank you. Yes the P5000 is now the 5300. Nozzle checks were done several times along with cleanings. All aok before I posted here. Will check alignment asap too and scan on my flatbed and post…
 
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LaniD

LaniD

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Thank you I replied below…
Yeah, it does!
There's definitely banding. See if the re-alignment fixes things.
Do you have a flatbed scanner? Maybe you could scan a small section of that negative at 1200dpi or so and post that here. The close-up may contain some clues.
 
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