Preflash with Colour?

mmills2 · Sep 6, 2019

I'm venturing back into the darkroom for the first time in a decade and I am feeling a little under prepared.
I primarily shoot colour now (120 Portra) but have more experience within a B&W darkroom, it also seems the web is awash with information and technique related to B&W but incredibly little on the colour side of things. So excuse my ignorance.

I'm attempting to print the project I have been working on for the last three+ years, so I have a lot to get through. With my first session coming up, I want to get a good solid idea of the look and feel of my prints. While being able to replicate the technique and create a uniform look.

By no means is this set in stone, but I wanted to test out a few ideas before getting stuck into the many images to print.
So...

I have an idea of creating a milky/creamy feel, ever so slightly washed out blacks and not overly strong highlights, without creating an underexposed print.
I'm guessing that using a small preflash will help me achieve this look, though I'm not certain.
Does anyone have experience with this technique to create a feel or look to the their prints, rather than using it just to bring back lost highlight details?

Hopefully I'm not completely off, but if so any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
(also I wish I had some references to hand, but I can't think of nor find one at the time of writing.)

Thanks,

Michael
http://michaelmills.co.uk

Rudeofus · Sep 6, 2019

My recommendation is you try modifying an existing print digitally to match your preference. Adjust contrast, color saturation, and note carefully which steps you took. Quite many of them can be replicated by adjusting exposure, development or printing process. Once you know which steps/modifications you need, we can likely point you in the right direction. Search for bleach bypass for muted colors.

mmills2 · Sep 6, 2019

Digitally wouldn't be a problem, pull in the shadows and highlights. I'd use levels, but I'm sure curves would be much the same.
I will certainly look into the bleach bypass, but on first glance it seems much too extreme. I'm after a subtle change.
I guess it's a slight overall lessening of contrast, but hopefully without affecting the mid-tones too much.

Rudeofus · Sep 6, 2019

What you describe is simply lower contrast. You'd have to either increase exposure and pull develop your negatives, or you could play with a mixture of RA-4 CD and regular B&W developer during printing.

DREW WILEY · Sep 7, 2019

The combination of low-contrast Portrait paper and Portra 160, which is itself low-contrast, yields a very soft print. You could try flashing if you include the equivalent of the orange film mask in the light path. I'm not personally fond of flashing. Some kind of supplementary b&w contrast mask will work better, and can be fine-tuned in any number of directions; but that's an advanced skill set with its own learning curve.

AgX · Sep 7, 2019

Rudeofus said:
My recommendation is you try modifying an existing print digitally to match your preference.

This is a absurd advice in an analog forum.

DREW WILEY · Sep 7, 2019

I was thinking the same thing. He asks for a plane flight from London to Liverpool, and someone tells him to fly to Singapore, and catch a flight there to Liverpool.

wyofilm · Sep 7, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
low-contrast Portrait paper

I'm not sure what this might be. Is it an RA-4 paper? Product name?

DREW WILEY · Sep 7, 2019

Yes, RA4. I don't personally use low contrast color paper, but it's made by both Fuji in their Crystal Archive lineup and Kodak in their Endura products, but only in rolls by Kodak. It will take a little shopping around to get the correct product number for a given size and sheen; but any dealer with a Fuji account should be able to order it. The specific options available differ somewhat in the UK versus the US, but Fuji is in use there too.

wyofilm · Sep 7, 2019

Thanks.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2019

Rudeofus said:
My recommendation is you try modifying an existing print digitally to match your preference.

AgX said:
This is a absurd advice in an analog forum.

DREW WILEY said:
I was thinking the same thing. He asks for a plane flight from London to Liverpool, and someone tells him to fly to Singapore, and catch a flight there to Liverpool.

People need to read all of Rudeofus' suggestion.
He was suggesting that the OP experiment with digital controls while he attempts to obtain the look he wants. Then he was to come back here and describe which of those controls gave him the results he sought. That information could then be used by us here to suggest analogue techniques suitable for the same purpose.

apollodarkroom · Sep 8, 2019

This book may have some helpful info for you:
http://ctein.com/PostExposure2ndIllustrated.pdf

DREW WILEY · Sep 8, 2019

That won't help you. Ctein did those kind of images using the Pan Matrix version of dye transfer printing, an obsolete process with a wide range of process controls including the adjustment of contrast via dye pH in relation to the paper mordant. Since the special pan film is no longer made, he's sold off much of the accompanying supplies. I personally bought some of his remaining Eastman dyes, but for sake of the more common version of dye transfer printing from chromes rather than color negs. Otherwise, it's more effective to pre-flash film rather than paper, or locate frozen stocks of old idiosyncratic films of low contrast, that is, if we're going to stay the course of analog discussion per se.

Bob Carnie · Sep 8, 2019

mmills2 said:
I'm venturing back into the darkroom for the first time in a decade and I am feeling a little under prepared.
I primarily shoot colour now (120 Portra) but have more experience within a B&W darkroom, it also seems the web is awash with information and technique related to B&W but incredibly little on the colour side of things. So excuse my ignorance.

I'm attempting to print the project I have been working on for the last three+ years, so I have a lot to get through. With my first session coming up, I want to get a good solid idea of the look and feel of my prints. While being able to replicate the technique and create a uniform look.

By no means is this set in stone, but I wanted to test out a few ideas before getting stuck into the many images to print.
So...

I have an idea of creating a milky/creamy feel, ever so slightly washed out blacks and not overly strong highlights, without creating an underexposed print.
I'm guessing that using a small preflash will help me achieve this look, though I'm not certain.
Does anyone have experience with this technique to create a feel or look to the their prints, rather than using it just to bring back lost highlight details?

Hopefully I'm not completely off, but if so any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
(also I wish I had some references to hand, but I can't think of nor find one at the time of writing.)

Thanks,

Michael
http://michaelmills.co.uk

hi Michael

When I did darkroom enlarger colour prints there was a method I used all the time.

Basically get Lee filters and place them in the enlarger and by testing different filters you can come up with the colour you want.
We would use a lith neg or just a digital black white negative and put this in the enlarger first... Include something with a lot of small type so that you can focus sharp
When you have made the type black , record the height , filter settings and exposures.
Then do a contact of all the filters at this exposure filter setting and by laying the small gels on the paper you will see what colours you can get with this balance.... If you are
consistent and take good notes then all you have to do in the future is pick your colours and put a larger filter (lee or roscoe) of the same value as the small one and when printing
flash enough paper with this base that you can then print over...
you can create any feel you want with this method.

hope this helps.

Bob

halfaman · Sep 9, 2019

I find Fuji CA type II to be a low-medium contrast paper to my taste, also saturation is in the soft side to me. If you combine it with a similar characteristics film (like Portra 400) I think you can have a good starting point. And this paper is availale in sheets.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/748145-REG/Fujifilm_600008946_Crystal_Archive_Type_II.html

You can also preflash, it has the same effect than in B&W but you shoud do it with some orange mask of the film you are printing in the negative holder to avoid altering the color balance.

PE comment in some other post that sodium sulfite acts as dye formation restrainer when added to the developer and could be used to decrease color saturation. It has a very strong effect and requires very small quantities that could be a problem to measure.

Bob Carnie · Sep 9, 2019

Pre Flash With Colour..... actually the four words tells you how to do it.. We did this all the time to add colour in Cross Processed film to print situations....
You may also want to use a filter under the enlarger out of focus with a colour mix you prefer. We used Pictrols to soften images just like Gaussian Blur in PS, or used secondary exposures on prints by placing crumpled paper or tissue, or film to create many otherworldly results.

DREW WILEY · Sep 9, 2019

Crystal Archive is an entire branded class of papers which encompass different paper thicknesses, sheens, sizes, and levels of contrast. Given the right film choice, some are capable of very high saturation. I can make CA prints almost indistinguishable from Cibachrome. In this case, he wants to do just the opposite. There are numerous options. Flashing through colored gels like Bob describes can also be done at the time of the shot instead, by placing the desired mild filter in a gel filter holder along with a diffusion sheet, then taking a shot of a neutral gray card to pre-flash the film. It takes some experience and accurate metering to learn how to do this, and not overdo it; and of course, your camera has to be capable of double exposures.

apollodarkroom · Sep 9, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
That won't help you. Ctein did those kind of images using the Pan Matrix version of dye transfer printing, an obsolete process with a wide range of process controls including the adjustment of contrast via dye pH in relation to the paper mordant. Since the special pan film is no longer made, he's sold off much of the accompanying supplies. I personally bought some of his remaining Eastman dyes, but for sake of the more common version of dye transfer printing from chromes rather than color negs. Otherwise, it's more effective to pre-flash film rather than paper, or locate frozen stocks of old idiosyncratic films of low contrast, that is, if we're going to stay the course of analog discussion per se.

I wasn’t referring to pre-flashing. A large section of Ctein’s book is on use of contrast reduction masks for printing color negatives with RA4. How is that not relevant to the look that the original poster is trying to achieve? I’m new to this so please correct me if I’m off base, thanks!

mmills2 · Sep 9, 2019

Some great answers, thank you.
The suggestions of flashing the film, while it might achieve the same results I want, doesn't really apply to my nearly completed project. I would also worry too, as that step is irreversible I would lose half of my negatives with poor exposures before seeing any decent results. I also don't think I could be consistent enough in my method of working.

Adding or changing chemicals, is also a non-starter. I am using a RA4 machine run by professional printers so, no tinkering with the machine thank you very much.

halfaman said:
You can also preflash, it has the same effect than in B&W but you shoud do it with some orange mask of the film you are printing in the negative holder to avoid altering the color balance.

This sounds ideal. I hadn't even considered using extra neg to balance out the colour.

So to follow on from my original question...the steps are the same as B&W? Would I need to compensate for added exposure during the preflash?

DREW WILEY · Sep 9, 2019

Hi apollo. From conversations with him in person, I don't think he ever actually tried masking for RA4 printing except in a token sense, but was making largely hypothetical remarks. He was primarily a dye transfer printer, so did understand masking in general; but the two approaches are quite different in details. I'm one of the few printers with serious hands-on experience doing masking for RA4. A somewhat older book like that would have to be rethought anyway because you'd have to dial in everything for the exact color neg as well as masking films involved, which have changed. The Post Exposure book is still a good resource to have around. Masking color negs is a lot like power steering : just a little has a significant effect. That's because they already have a built-in orange mask. By comparison, dye transfer from chromes, and especially Cibachrome masking, required significantly more aggressive masks. But there's no need to go into the specifics on this thread because there are already better answers for the original poster's needs.

apollodarkroom · Sep 9, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Hi apollo. From conversations with him in person, I don't think he ever actually tried masking for RA4 printing except in a token sense, but was making largely hypothetical remarks. He was primarily a dye transfer printer, so did understand masking in general; but the two approaches are quite different in details. I'm one of the few printers with serious hands-on experience doing masking for RA4. A somewhat older book like that would have to be rethought anyway because you'd have to dial in everything for the exact color neg as well as masking films involved, which have changed. The Post Exposure book is still a good resource to have around. Masking color negs is a lot like power steering : just a little has a significant effect. That's because they already have a built-in orange mask.

Interesting, thank you! I would be very interested in your thoughts on making digital masks on transparency paper for color negatives to be printed with RA-4. I found an example of this on a different thread and it seems like it could work well for overall contrast reduction. Let me know if I can get in touch with you off of this thread. Thanks!

halfaman · Sep 10, 2019

mmills2 said:
So to follow on from my original question...the steps are the same as B&W? Would I need to compensate for added exposure during the preflash?

Exactly the same as B&W. I do sometimes compensate the preflash time or not, depeding on the particular negative.

DREW WILEY · Sep 10, 2019

apollo ... I don't do anything digital whatsoever unless it's simply for sake of web applications. All my shooting and printing, whether color or b&w, is real film and handled darkroom-style. I have a lot of precise film masking gear and am highly accustomed to it, so have no interest in making masks digitally. But that kind of path is useful for people who want to make significantly enlarged negatives for sake of big UV contact prints, since very large sheets of appropriate real film are now either prohibitively expensive or no longer made at all. And yes, if you have specific questions about technique, I'd be happy to answer them.

Preflash with Colour?

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