Potassium Dichromate Bleach

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GrantR

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I mixed up some Potassium Dichromate bleach to do some reversal processing and the first 3 rolls I shot looked great! Once I got to the 4th one, however, the film started looking a little bit more dense and I had a loss of overall contrast. I initially thought that I just had a light leak issue, but know I'm wondering if the bleach is becoming exhausted, however. I knew that I could not keep re-using the stuff forever, but I thought I would get more life out of it than that. If I extended bleaching time, would I get a better image--or is it a situation where I just need to bite the bullet and make a fresh batch? That sulfuric acid isn't the cheapest stuff in the world!
 
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GrantR

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Looking back over the photoformulary's prices, I realize that it actually is pretty cheap...you just have to fill out that dumb DEA form--off to mix up some fresh bleach!
 

hrst

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Sulfuric acid is very readily and very cheaply available as battery acid for cars as a 37% solution. The exact dilution may vary a bit.
 

nworth

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Dichromate bleach becomes exhausted pretty quickly, both through use and age. The color changes toward green as it goes, but it may not be obvious. I don't like handling small quantities of concentrated sulfuric acid. It's heavy, syrupy, and generally nasty. If you only mix up bleach occasionally, you can substitute sodium bisulfate (66 grams of bisulfate is equivalent to the 12 ml of sulfuric acid) or even sulfamic acid.
 

hrst

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is it as easy as popping open a car battery?

No no no, buy fresh battery acid from a car accessory store. It costs a few euros here for 1 liter so I'd guess it's almost free there...

Also, the 35-40% solution is not as dangerous as the concentrated acid. (You still have to use gloves and safety goggles.)
 

georgegrosu

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I use a process suitable for making b&w slides.
I make b&w slides on b&w negative, positive b&w Kodak 5302, Dup positiv Orwo DP 3.
For bleaching I use potassium dichromate with sulfuric acid. Reuse solution with good results even after a few months.
I think your problem may come from the first developer b&w. Either variation of physical parameters (time, temperature) or dilution / contamination of the first developer.
George
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Sulfuric acid is also available at the hardware store where it is sold for unclogging toilets - as when someone has decided that diapers or underwear are flushable. It's the concentrated stuff and instantly turns fabric to goo.

I have been using the same box/bag of battery acid I bought as a teenager: a quart of battery acid makes 15+ gallons of 0.5% bleach.

Glacial acetic gives plenty of olfactory warning about treating it with respect, not so sulfuric acid.
 
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Relayer

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For bleaching I use potassium dichromate with sulfuric acid. Reuse solution with good results even after a few months.
I also use same bleach. No any problem with reuse. Resource of 1l of bleach bath is more than 10 rolls.

I think your problem may come from the first developer b&w. Either variation of physical parameters (time, temperature) or dilution / contamination of the first developer.
I agree with George. 1st developer in reversal processing s very critical part. Agitation and temp is very important. Also note that if you not use replenisher - you need increase dev time after each processed film or make fresh solution.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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I was surprised at how much over exposure is needed when I started out with reversal processing. I was using lith film and reversal processing it to make negatives for making cyanotypes. The film had to be almost jet-black when it came out of the first developer. I also found making test strips to be a bit disorienting at first as things are a bit arse-backwards: not used to increasing the exposure in the enlarger if the result is too dark.
 

georgegrosu

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Nicholas Lindan
I was surprised at how much over exposure is needed when I started out with reversal processing.

I have not worked with lith film and developer for lith film.
Perhaps lith developer for film (high contrast) is far more active than the first developer in the reversible b&w process.
That's exposure for the reversible process must be greater.
The image appears in lith developer after a few tens seconds - loud. I think I saw so much time in past a test with lith film.
George
 

Nicholas Lindan

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bblhed

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I need a math check on this, and this thread appeared to be the best one to do it in, if I am wrong please move to the correct thread.

I would like to makeup some Potassium Dichromate bleach to do B&W reversal, but I would like to use readily available easy to go and pick up battery acid. Most of the parts stores I use would probably fill out the DEA forms for me and let me process my film in their bathroom if I just showed it to them when I was done.

I am looking to match the solution of

1 L H2O
12 mL H2SO4
9.5g Potassium Dichromate

Assuming battery acid is a 37% solution and I want to end up with a 1.186% solution (rounding) I calculate that I need to add 32mL battery acid to 980 mL water, I will end up with a solution with just under 1.18% and that should be close enough. Then I can add my Potassium Dichromate and end up with the correct solution.

What I would like to know is did I calculate all this correctly?
 

holmburgers

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Welcome to the club...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

:wink:
 

H2O

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...I would like to know is did I calculate all this correctly?...
No.

How to begin?
(sorry for my english)

It is important to realize a few assumptions.
1. In mixing solutions doesn't generally govern rule about aditivity of volumes, especially in mixing water and sulphuric acid.
Mixing 1000 mL H2O with 12 mL H2SO4 (conc.; 96 %) doesn't give 1012 mL solution, but about 1010 mL.
If a bigger volume of H2SO4 would be used the bigger difference will be observed.
For example 30 mL H2O plus 30 mL concentrated sulphuric acid gives 56 mL solution.
Aditivity of volumes is possible to apply only to more dillute solutions.
2. The density of H2SO4 is in a wide range from almost 1 g/mL to 1,84 g/ml for concentrated (96 %) solution. The relation between density and concentration acid(s) (and not only acids) are published in many chemical handbooks. This relation is not linear in whole range (0 % to 96 %), but linearity can be used (for "our" calculation) between suppose interval 1 %.

Both assumptions should be considered in calculation at various ways of preperation of H2SO4 solutions!
The calculation is based on mass balance (not on volume balance).

And now some results.

Mixing 1000 mL H2O with 12 mL H2SO4 (conc.; 96 %) gives circa 1010 mL solution at concentration 2,061 % H2SO4.
(Yes, I know, that somewhere I use circa and somewhere I write number with three decimal points.)

If I want to use battery acid (37 %) for preparation of such concentration (2,061 %), I need 44,2 mL battery acid (37 %) to 1 L solutions!!! For example I dissolve this volume of acid carefully under stirring in 800 mL water and then I add water to 1000 mL.

Using suggested volume of battery acid (above) 32 mL gives concentration 1,481 %.

If the difference of "acid strenght" 2,06 % (according to original formula) against 1,48 % is significant that is another question ;-).
I answer for question if calculation was correct.
 
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georgegrosu

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bblhed
1 L H2O
12 mL H2SO4
9.5g Potassium Dichromate

Solution recipes are given, usually to a final volume of 1 liter (1000 ml).
Do not put 1000 ml of water and chemicals remaining.

H2O
concentration 1,481 %.

I think you are referring to the density of the acid solution? And not her strength.
I used to prepare the stop solution for the ECN 2 process acid solution for cars (wrote on the glass like 35%). I make 3 times more than the recommended ml of concentrated sulfuric acid.
Here the sulfuric acid creates pH needed to be challenged silver image formed in the first developer. I think it is not overstating the case to the third decimal calculations.
George
 

H2O

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Solution recipes are given, usually to a final volume of 1 liter (1000 ml).
Do not put 1000 ml of water and chemicals remaining.
Usually doesn't mean always.
Usually doesn't mean that other ways of solutions preparation are not correct.
Many formulas are "historical heritage" when empirical skills had (usually :smile:) priority.
Yes, the difference in acid concentration prepared either 12 mL acid plus 1000 ml H2O or 12 mL acid to 1000 mL solution is too small so the mistake can be neglected.


Using suggested volume of battery acid (above) 32 mL gives concentration 1,481 %
I think you are referring to the density of the acid solution? And not her strength.

First, I should point out that my calculation is based on mass percentage.
The acid concenration is usually set in mass concentration. This is necessary for mass balance.

Hm, density.
Do you know what acid concentration responds to density 1,481 g/mL (or g/cm3)?
About 58 %
I can't image how is possible to prepare such high concentration by diluting weeker acid (37 %) in water only.

The value 1,481 % was calculated (as I told) by means of mass balance of source substances.

...I used to prepare the stop solution for the ECN 2 process acid solution for cars (wrote on the glass like 35%). I make 3 times more than the recommended ml of concentrated sulfuric acid...
Battery acid (sulphuric ;-)) in concentration 35 % (mass.) is four times (almost exactly) weeker than concentrated sulphuric acid (96 %). When you want to reach the same concentration of dilute acid prepared from concentrated acid you should use 4 times more (mL!!!) battery acid (35 %) then concentrated sulphuric acid (of course, for the same volume of end solution).

I would want to remind that my words are concerned with the correctness of calculation only!!!
And the discussion about the significance of certain inaccuracy or incorrectness on influence of function such solutions should be debated separately.
 

georgegrosu

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Personally I am less familiar with the expression rates of mass percentage. (I apologize for my ignorance).
I think people are more accustomed to a traditional recipe and clear.
I saw a discussion about "Solution% Help - Reversal Processing Bleach - Sulfuric Acid Content. "
I think it was easier to prepare 2000 ml of solution and there were many discussions in the preparation of 1900.000 ... 000 ml.
H2O
If I want to use battery acid (37 %) for preparation of such concentration (2,061 %), I need 44,2 mL battery acid (37 %) to 1 L solutions!!!
I did not understand how you have results 44.2 ml battery acid (37 %).

ILFORD says - solution of sulfuric acid diluted 10 times the amount of acid is used 10 times.
If concentrated sulphuric acid cannot be obtained use dilute acid. This can be a 10% solution. If 10% sulphuric acid is used add 100ml to 400ml of water to make the part B bleach solution.
George
 

H2O

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...I did not understand how you have results 44.2 ml battery acid (37 %)...

But I don't understand how did you find following :smile::
...I used to prepare the stop solution for the ECN 2 process acid solution for cars (wrote on the glass like 35%). I make 3 times more than the recommended ml of concentrated sulfuric acid....

And I don't know how are you familiar with chemistry especially with calculation of solutions dilution.

Some basic chemical handbook is needed for such calculation where for different concentration is given density and on the contrary. For example CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.
Note: my explanation is important mainly for dilution of sulphuric acid from high concentration (96%; 37 %; 35 %...)

Back to your way of dilution.
If the final solution is prepared from concentrated H2SO4 (96 %) or from "battery" H2SO4 (let's say your 35 %),
it is clear that final solution must contain absolutely the same amount (mass!!!) of acid (as "100% compound").

And now we have for example 12 mL concentrated H2SO4 (96 %).
The density of such solution is 1,8355 g/mL
Mass of such volume is 22,026 g!!!!
But, the contents of "pure" (as chemicals) H2SO4 in this mass is 96 %.
The total mass of H2SO4 (again, as "pure" chemicals) in 12 mL is 21,15 g.

You replace 12 mL concentrated acid by 36 mL your battery acid (3 times, according to your consideration).
The density of such solution is 1,26 g/mL (interpolation of table value for 34 % and 36 %)
Mass of such volume is 45,36 g!!!!
Again, the contents of "pure" (as chemicals) H2SO4 in this mass is 35 %.
The total mass of H2SO4 (again, as "pure" chemicals) in 36 mL is only 15,88 g.

Do you understand it?

If 1000 mL water is used in this case it would be possible to neglect final solution volume for simplicity. The mistake is small.

At the end I would like to appologize for a little wrong number of concentration value 2,061 % (above; 01-25-2011 09:37 AM). The correct value should be 2,069 %, sorry ;-)
 

georgegrosu

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I considered 35% volumetric concentration - solution of sulfuric acid.
From here we approximated I think is a part of sulfuric acid and two parts water. And hence the multiplication result with three volumes 35% sulfuric acid solution.
I think ILFORD from the same reasoning went on and they where 10% sulfuric acid solution in the example shown.
If the stop solution for ECN 2 is only important to create a pH of about 1.
This will stop the action of developer instantly.
George
 

holmburgers

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I have a loosely related question...

I find that the washes in the ilford reversal process seem excessive to me. Why would one need to wash between the 1st developer and the bleach? As mentioned, the acid will immediately stop development, and I can't imagine that the small amount of developer would affect the bleach. Also, can the bleach be reused? Days later? I don't think so...

I'd like to cut out the unncessary washes. The necessary ones, in my eyes, seem to be wash between bleach & the clearing bath, and the final wash. Perhaps an extra wash if you choose to fix at the end, and wish to reuse the fixer.

Any thoughts on this? Would the sodium-sulfite bath have any negative effects on the 2nd dev.?

Thanks
 

georgegrosu

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Bleaching bath can be reused without problems (about 10 films / 1000 ml).
Intermediate washes contribute to good stability and reproducibility of the photographic process.
If film it passes directly from the developer (alkaline pH) in bleach (acid pH) where the amount of developer transported to the bleaching bath to increase the pH to high values which might not be able to attack the silver image and a turn into silver ion.
My opinion is to use intermediate washings like is recommended.
George
 

dr5chrome

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"35%" ..holy-mackerel George! That is just reckless....





I considered 35% volumetric concentration - solution of sulfuric acid.
From here we approximated I think is a part of sulfuric acid and two parts water. And hence the multiplication result with three volumes 35% sulfuric acid solution.
I think ILFORD from the same reasoning went on and they where 10% sulfuric acid solution in the example shown.
If the stop solution for ECN 2 is only important to create a pH of about 1.
This will stop the action of developer instantly.
George
 

H2O

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It was told:
...I considered 35% volumetric concentration - solution of sulfuric acid.
From here we approximated I think is a part of sulfuric acid and two parts water....
But recently:
...acid solution for cars (wrote on the glass like 35%)...

What is true? How do you know that your "glas battery" acid, labeled 35 %, was prepared as you wrote (part of sulphuric acid and two parts of water)?
Btw. mass concentration of such acid is about 46 % and I should say that such concentration won't be optimal for battery of your car.

The concentration of sulphuric acid is usually ;-) labelled by mass! concentration and for the best by density. (What is density of your "car" acid?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid
chapter 2.1 Grades of sulfuric acid

Again, again.
We talk about the correctness of calculation.

The function of solution at different composition (concentration) is another topic.
I know very well that every solution has a certain working "elasticity" or certain concentration range of own working ability. Some solution has this range very narrow, when the small change in composition has big influence on functionality (or even on malfunction :smile:) and some solution can work for equal results in wider range of concentrations. For example bleach solution.
 
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H2O

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Some words to dilution else.
Sorry if this is described somewhere in a depth of the forum.

I anticipate what is problem. The cross rule or the crisscross method.
It is published in many handbooks, for example in Anchell's The Darkroom Cookbook (the 3rd) on page 168.

Is it correct? We will see.

Let's image mixing two solutions (of one compound; e.g. H2SO4). This procedure gives the third solution.
The first solution can be described by mass, which enter to mixture, let's mark m(1) and composition described by mass fraction of compound, w(1).
The second solution similarly. Mass m(2) and its composition w(2).
The third desired solution, mass m(3) and w(3).

According to the law of conservation of mass, the sum of mass of particular parts before dilution of solution is equal to mass after that. We can balance both total mass of the system and mass of concrete compounds.

[eq. 1]
m(1) + m(2) = m(3)
[eq. 2]
m(1)×w(1) + m(2)×w(2) = m(3)×w(3)

From above:
[eq. 3]
m(1)×w(1) + m(2)×w(2) = [m(1) + m(2)]×w(3)

Let's continue
[eq. 4]
m(1)×w(1) + m(2)×w(2) = m(1)×w(3) + m(2)×w(3)
[eq. 5]
m(1)×w(1) - m(1)×w(3) = m(2)×w(3) - m(2)×w(2)
[eq. 6]
m(1)×[w(1) - w(3)] = m(2)×[w(3) - w(2)]

[eq. 7]
m(1)/m(2) = [w(3) - w(2)]/[w(1) - w(3)]

Equation 7 is proof of the cross rule. (Mass fraction can be replaced by mass percentage in ratio on the right of equation.)

But! But! But!

The cross rule is (generally) valid only for mass!!!
(For volume only with the important limitations, below)

And volume?
The example solutions above can be described by volumes; V(1), V(2) and V(3) and by the density given solutions (I use symbol "d") d(1), d(2) and d(3).

Eq. 2 can be arranged:
[eq. 8]
d(1)×V(1)×w(1) + d(2)×V(2)×w(2) = d(3)×V(3)×w(3)
Or arranging eq. 3
[eq. 9]
d(1)×V(1)×w(1) + d(2)×V(2)×w(2) = [d(1)×V(1) + m(2)]×w(3)

If the second solutions is water, w(2) is zero and some equations become more simply.
Eq. 9 is basic equation for correct calculation of dilution.


When densities at concentrations w(1) and w(2) are significantly different (this is case of H2SO4!!!) we can't use the principle ("law") of conservation of volume.

And what Steve Anchell with his example? Concentrated (glacial) acetic acid has density 1,05 g/mL and that's why the mistake can be neglected. Similarly for solutions let's say under 10 %.
The principle ("law") of conservation of volume can be applied only in the cases of such dilute solutions or for unusual volume fractions.
I recommend to be more careful with dilution of H2SO4.


Note: As I told, densities are published in many chemical handbooks, for example legendary CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRC_Handbook_of_Chemistry_and_Physics
It can be reached in every technical (and I think not only technical) libraries and table for H2SO4 is only on one or two pages.
 
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