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Eugen Mezei

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I just read in Jonas, Paul. Manual of darkroom procedures and techniques; 1971:

[...] it dissolves silver to produce finer grain structure.
Sodium sulfite is used for this purpose. Since sodium sulfite is slightly alkaline (pH 8 1/?), metol works well with it, and the addition of other alkalies to the solution is unnecessary. (Metol works best in a solution with a pH index of 8). To produce the silver dissolving effect, sodium sulfite (desiccated) has to be in a concentration of 3 or 3.5 ounces per quart.

What does he mean by quart?

As I am preparing my Metol developers from components, I always wanted to reduce the quantity of sulfite as I dont need it as antioxydant in the long term. So I was asking myself where are the limits for:
- assuring only the alcalinity,
- assuring the silver solvent function,
- assuring the preservative function longterm.
 

MattKing

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One quart equals 0.946353 liter.
Correct, if a US quart. You need to check to see if the text is a US one, or a UK one.
An Imperial quart is 40 Imperial fluid ounces vs. the USA measurement of one US quart being 32 US fluid ounces.
The US fluid ounce is about 4.08% larger than the Imperial fluid ounce.
 
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Eugen Mezei

Eugen Mezei

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Thank you all. So it is practically one litre.

What if I don't use sulfite at all but only Metol and bring the solution to pH 8 by other means? E.g. with Borax. Would that give me the same developing but without the silver solving?
 
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RalphLambrecht

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I just read in Jonas, Paul. Manual of darkroom procedures and techniques; 1971:



What does he mean by quart?

As I am preparing my Metol developers from components, I always wanted to reduce the quantity of sulfite as I dont need it as antioxydant in the long term. So I was asking myself where are the limits for:
- assuring only the alcalinity,
- assuring the silver solvent function,
- assuring the preservative function longterm.

my guess is, he means a 1/4 gallon or 1 liter.
 

cmacd123

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Correct, if a US quart. You need to check to see if the text is a US one, or a UK one.
An Imperial quart is 40 Imperial fluid ounces vs. the USA measurement of one US quart being 32 US fluid ounces.
The US fluid ounce is about 4.08% larger than the Imperial fluid ounce.
yes, exactly! if posible always use the metric measures. they are constant EVERYWHERE. (even the US quart is legally defined as so many Mililitres. )
 

MattKing

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No need for excessive confusion. It’s probably safe to assume us quarts

I too am leaning toward that USA quart conclusion, because it appears to be from a 1971 USA publication.
If it was from a UK publication of that vintage, an Imperial quart would be slightly more likely.
And if it was a Canadian publication - all bets would be off!
 

mshchem

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Grains and fluid drams! Rock on! I love my Paterson graduates that have mL and both US and Imperial fluid ounces! Perfectly complex!
 

Philippe-Georges

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Are you people at photrio, when measuring in gallons, using US or Imperial gallons?

To quote https://energyeducation.ca:
"....The Imperial gallon is a unit of volume in the imperial system of units, where the US gallon is used exclusively in the United States. The imperial gallon is 20% larger than the US gallon. The gallon is commonly used to measure volumes of fuel for vehicles. Miles per gallon are a unit often used for fuel consumption..."

According to Wikipedia: US gallon = 3,79l and Imperial gallon = 4,54l...

Perhaps, to avoid any confusions here, can we somewhat standardise unstandardized standards?
 
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Craig

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Perhaps, to avoid any confusions here, can we somewhat standardise unstandardized standards?
It's a reasonable assumption that on these forums the only people who will use ounces and gallons are Americans, so it's safe to conclude they will be talking about US measure. For example, some of the Kodak chemicals are sold to make a gallon, which is a US gallon.
 

MattKing

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It's a reasonable assumption that on these forums the only people who will use ounces and gallons are Americans, so it's safe to conclude they will be talking about US measure. For example, some of the Kodak chemicals are sold to make a gallon, which is a US gallon.

Depends if you include Canadians in amongst the Americans, and then only with respect to us older Canadians.
At 67, I am of the age where there were two main measurement unit systems being taught in school - US and metric - with at least a nod to the continuing existence of Imperial measures. At that time, IIRC, Canadian gasoline was still being sold in Imperial gallons.
My biggest reason for suggesting people be aware of Imperial measurements is because of all the excellent historical UK reference materials out there.
FWIW, when I started out in the darkroom 56 years ago, my storage containers were massively heavy 1/2 Imperial gallon glass carboys ....
 
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Thank you all. So it is practically one litre.

What if I don't use sulfite at all but only Metol and bring the solution to pH 8 by other means? E.g. with Borax. Would that give me the same developing but without the silver solving?

I would not omit sod sulf.
 

cmacd123

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I still rember seeing the small signs on poles at Gas staions to reasure american tourists that the price per Gallon might be high, but that the gallon was so many to so other many bigger. and that at a B/A station you were allowed to use your Gulf credit card.


(BA, Gulf, BP, Fina,Cities Service, sunoco and a few others all eventually chanaged to Petro Canada)
 

eli griggs

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Download the free version of "Real-calc" to your phone (android) maybe iPhone?

Real-calc is excellent and has a good "conversions" software which will easily translate and give the solutions to most anything that can be or is, convertible, ie, mass, time, length, metric and SAE measures and weights, etc.

No searching is needed and math work is automatic.

Cheers,
Eli
 

Sirius Glass

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my guess is, he means a 1/4 gallon or 1 liter.

The difference between 1 US standard quart and 1 liter, could effect the life or effectiveness of some photochemicals. I suggest using the proper measurement to avoid any unintended consequences.
 

albada

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I don't understand. Please explain.

"Sod sulf" was an abbreviation of "sodium sulfite". I will sometimes write "s.sulfite".
Sodium sulfite regenerates Metol, so the developer will be worse without it. So it should not be omitted.

Mark
 
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I just read in Jonas, Paul. Manual of darkroom procedures and techniques; 1971:



What does he mean by quart?

As I am preparing my Metol developers from components, I always wanted to reduce the quantity of sulfite.
A quart is 2 pints.
It seems like he is making a D23 type developer with reduced sulphite.

It would be easier to make D23 as published and simply dilute it when he needs to make a working solution.
 

Philippe-Georges

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Depends if you include Canadians in amongst the Americans, and then only with respect to us older Canadians.
At 67, I am of the age where there were two main measurement unit systems being taught in school - US and metric - with at least a nod to the continuing existence of Imperial measures. At that time, IIRC, Canadian gasoline was still being sold in Imperial gallons.
My biggest reason for suggesting people be aware of Imperial measurements is because of all the excellent historical UK reference materials out there.
FWIW, when I started out in the darkroom 56 years ago, my storage containers were massively heavy 1/2 Imperial gallon glass carboys ....

Thank you all for the answers!

So I can conclude that the ILFORD formulas, particularly in older publications, are in Imperial measures.
And brands like Kodak, GAF, 3M in US measures, and the rest, mainly European and Japanese brands, in metric.

And it is 'interesting' to determine the origine of the photographer, US or British Imperium, when he is publishing his own formula.

BTW, what is a 1/22 Imperial gallon, is it 210ml or 170ml, and what is a "glass carboys"?
 
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RalphLambrecht

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I too am leaning toward that USA quart conclusion, because it appears to be from a 1971 USA publication.
If it was from a UK publication of that vintage, an Imperial quart would be slightly more likely.
And if it was a Canadian publication - all bets would be off!

Remember, even theUS will go metric one day. They just do it inch by inch.
 
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