Pink Stabilizer Problem with C-41 Process

RellikJM · Nov 27, 2010

My C-41 is processed like this:
Jobo ATL1 same as CPP2
Temp is 37.6 Degrees Centigrade
Pre-Heat No Water 5:00
Developer 3:15
Bleach 6:30
Wash 3:00
Fix 6:30
Wash 10:00
Stabilizer: 1:30

The washes are automatic with twice the normal volume used for processing solutions dumped every 20-30 seconds.

Despite having the 3:00 minute wash between bleach and fix and the 10:00 minute wash time the film still turns the stabilizer a pink color. Films are Fuji and I've never processed Kodak to see if the pink is film related.

Your thoughts?

domaz · Nov 27, 2010

Is that really a problem? Obsessing about the color of solutions after they are used is rarely helpful from what I've read..

hrst · Nov 27, 2010

My stabilizers/final rinses become at least very slightly pink no matter what I do, always. It is perfectly normal. The color fades if the solution is left in light.

If the color is strong, it can be a sign of insufficient wash, but if your wash is per manufacturer's instructions or more, and the color is slight, it shouldn't be a problem.

Photo Engineer · Nov 27, 2010

Pink with red bleach (not the green type III bleach) indicates insufficient wash times after the bleach and after the fix. You should also be seeing the fix turn pink with the same degree of use.

PE

RellikJM · Nov 28, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Pink with red bleach (not the green type III bleach) indicates insufficient wash times after the bleach and after the fix. You should also be seeing the fix turn pink with the same degree of use.

PE

I'm using the green colored type III bleach.

Do you think 3:00 after bleach and 10:00 after fix is enough washing?

nworth · Nov 28, 2010

I recently shot some older C-41 film and had it processed at a commercial lab. When I got it back, I treated it with C-41 stabilizer, since the current process does not include the formaldehyde based stabilizer required by the older film. My stabilizer also turned pink, and the film turned a slightly more brown tone that it had been. There didn't seem to be any problem with subsequent scans, but I was wondering about the pink stabilizer and the color shift.

GeorgK · Nov 28, 2010

Diluted bleach is usually orange-yellow, so i doubt that the pink color comes from the bleach.
I guess this might be sensitizers or filter layers that are washed out after development. It depends on the pH, how efficiently (and when) they are washed out. So, if your fixer is neutral to acidic, and your stabilizer is basic, they may end up in the stabilizer.

Commercially developed film is usually rinsed not very well (waste water is very expensive for companies), so it is not a surprise that some stuff comes off when you rinse it again. BTW, to my knowledge the dyes in color film should be less sensitive to residual chemicals than silver.

Georg

nickandre · Nov 28, 2010

I would get the same coloring in my stabilizer after use. I concluded that it was due to the film itself, not any carryover. It does not occur with all types of film (at least to the same extent.) It also does not seem to be a problem.

Do you change the water at least 3 full times during the 10 minute wash?

Photo Engineer · Nov 28, 2010

Early C41 bleaches were made from Ammonium Ferric EDTA which is blood red. Bleach III is Ammonium Ferric NTA which is yellow green. The fixer contained Ammonium EDTA. If any Ferric ion or Ferrous ion is carried into the fix, it can turn red which then appears pink in the stabilzer. If any film is improperly washed it can contain some form of Iron which can leach out in the stabilzer or final rinse.

The original Kodak C41 process used a long wash after both the bleach and the fix. I have posted the times here. Recently, they have recommended short washes which can retain chemicals. Generally, IMHO, this can reduce the lifetime of the processed films in question.

I cannot prove that this is the sutuation here. It could be carried over sensitizing dyes just as in B&W processing and in that case there is no harm to the image whatsoever.

PE

schlger · Nov 1, 2016

Hello,

I observe the same pinkish colour in C-41 wash water and subsequently in stabilizer no matter whether red bleach (Calbe) or green bleach bleach (Flexicolor III) is used. My washing time in the Jobo processor is also prologated to 10 min at 38° C with change of water every 30 sec. A rest of 5 min. in plain water after the washing in the Jobo will result in a strong pink colour of the water with some foam on the surface and a definite chemical smell in the drum. After repeated changes of water, the pink becomes weaker but even after 30 min. of additional wash, some weak cast is observable.
Can I do something wrong, prolongating the washing process?

Thanks for your advices
Gerhard

bvy · Nov 1, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I cannot prove that this is the sutuation here. It could be carried over sensitizing dyes just as in B&W processing and in that case there is no harm to the image whatsoever.

This. I think.

I have the same issue. Very thorough rinsing, and pink final rinse after several films. My bleach is dark green.

sfaber17 · Nov 1, 2016

I see the same thing. I use the C41RA ferric ammonium PDTA based bleach like bvy. Kept extending the wash time but didn't seem to help really. This was with Fuji films.

bvy · Nov 1, 2016

sfaber17 said:
I see the same thing. I use the C41RA ferric ammonium PDTA based bleach like bvy. Kept extending the wash time but didn't seem to help really. This was with Fuji films.

Yes. Superia is 75% of what I process.

Photo Engineer · Nov 1, 2016

Try this. Take a small quantity of stabilizer and add some sodium sulfite (SULFITE) to it. Say about 1 g / 100 ml of stabilizer. It need not be accurate.

If the pink color vanishes, it could be carried over color developer. In this case, you need to use a stop after the color developer, then a rinse and then follow with the rest of the process. Some water supplies tend to cause the film to retain color developer and this turns pink.

PE

schlger · Nov 9, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Try this. Take a small quantity of stabilizer and add some sodium sulfite (SULFITE) to it. Say about 1 g / 100 ml of stabilizer. It need not be accurate.

If the pink color vanishes, it could be carried over color developer. In this case, you need to use a stop after the color developer, then a rinse and then follow with the rest of the process. Some water supplies tend to cause the film to retain color developer and this turns pink.

PE

Thanks for your advice, I tested it yesterday and sulfite doesn’t affect the pink colour in wash water or stabi. The stop bath (1:30, 18 ml 80% CH3COOH/ litre, 3:00 wash before bleach) made the bleach to look better after the first run, it was not so dark brown and kept more green / yellowish. But the stop didn’t reduce the pink colour of wash water after fix. The intensity of pink depends of course from the number of developed films and disappears almost completely after half an hour of repeated water changes. Only a slight tan discolouration of stabi builds up after repeated use. So its the same as before. Can I do any harm to the film with that long washing?

Can I reuse/replenish the Flexicolor Bleach III when I use a stop bath? The bleach is most expensive. Has anyone experiences with replenishing BLEACH III in roller tube processors? Kodak fact sheet says for roller tube processors only 4 35mm/36 films per litre for the developer, used one shot and twice for bleach and fix, used twice with aeration of bleach by shaking. I have developed 6 films in one litre dev. and 12/l in bleach and fix without visible changes. The negatives, developed with stop after developer also don’t show visual differences, as much as I can say, having made no prints until now.

Thanks
Gerhard

sfaber17 · Nov 9, 2016

schlger said:
T
Can I reuse/replenish the Flexicolor Bleach III when I use a stop bath?
Gerhard

The stop bath should help preserve the bleach since it will keep the pH lower. I measure the pH of the fresh bleach and then after use add the 28% stop bath acetic acid to bring the pH back to the original level. This helps to replenish it. The bromide level will still decrease which can be made up by replenishing some from the fresh bleach.

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2016

What he said!

PE

Pink Stabilizer Problem with C-41 Process

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