Piezography for digital negatives?

[sanking]

Just curious if anyone here has used the Piezography Neutral K7 ink set with the Epson 2200 or R1800 for making digital negatives?

Sandy King

 

[sanking]

BTW, I am primarily interested in knowing if the K7 ink set will adhere well to OHP materials. When I did a search I found some conflicting information about this.

Sandy

 

[BillSchwab]

Sandy, I can't speak for the K7's, but I have used the MIS carbon pigs for some time and they do not work well at all on the OHP in my experience.

Bill

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

My measurement of a calibration file print on OHP from a Cone split sepia loaded machine looks like it would be a viable inkset for making digital negatives. I haven't made any attempts with it, though.

 

[Kees]

Sandy, I can't speak for the K7's, but I have used the MIS carbon pigs for some time and they do not work well at all on the OHP in my experience.

Bill

I am using the MIS UT quad and hex black inks for years. They print very well on copyJet, ultrafine and pictorico. These inks behave just like the ultrachromes. The MIS original archival color inkset (maybe you refer to that set?) is a different animal. It can print colorized negatives on ultrafine rather well, but they dry very (I mean very, very) slow. Inks puddle on pictorico and copyjet. If I take down inklimits (in quadtonerip) it is also possible to print colorized negatives on copyjet and pictorico. These dry ok then, better than on ultrafine, which stays sticky even dry. But I think this inkset should be avoided for digital negatives. The newer MIS ultachrome (color) equivalents, like MISK4 or MISpro, should perform a lot better I expect.

I have been using the very first piezography plugin and quad black inkset. Later I replaced the inks by the original MIS (non ultratone) FS set folowed by the UT FS set. But I switched very early from the piezo plugin to QuadToneRip. At this moment I am using several inks from the MIS Ultratone BW sets with quadtonerip. They all print well for negatives on pictorico, copyjet and ultrafine. I have not tried the piezo K7 set though. But I expect it to work because these inks are made to behave like ultrachrome inks. I use photo K for black, but also print using only the 3 next greys.

 

[BillSchwab]

I am using the MIS UT quad and hex black inks for years. They print very well on copyJet, ultrafine and pictorico.

In my case it is the UT7 and they work horribly on the Pictorico. No puddling, but slow dry and much reduced density as is apparent from my densitomiter. I get far better negatives with the regular Epson inks and the PDN system than I do with the MIS.

Bill

 

[sanking]

I have decided to give the neutral tone Piezography ink set a shot with the Epson 2200. This has logistical advantages over other ink sets in that it consists of seven individual cartridges which can be interchandged with the regular Epson UC ink set with no flushing involved. The K7 set requires QTR but the use of all black inks may reduce the amount of calibration necessary with the profiles.

Since I already have a lot of experience using the Epson 2200 with PDN the use of the K7 set will give me an opportunity to evaluate the claims made by some that an all black ink set will give smoother results than one that mixes colors. And the cost to test this out is not that great.

Sandy

 

[Ron-san]

I have decided to give the neutral tone Piezography ink set a shot with the Epson 2200. This ......... will give me an opportunity to evaluate the claims made by some that an all black ink set will give smoother results than one that mixes colors.

Sandy

Sandy-- Thanks for doing the experiment. I will very interested to hear how it works out. Cheers, Ron-san

 

[sanking]

Sandy-- Thanks for doing the experiment. I will very interested to hear how it works out. Cheers, Ron-san

I am thinking that since all of the inks are simply varying shades of black in the K7 set I should be able to find an existing profile supplied with either QTR or Cone and adjust the ink setting plus or minus to give the necessary UV blocking for my process. Does this make sense?

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Quick report.

I got the Piezography K7 ink set for the 2200 and installed the cartridges. Installed software for the QTR and made a first print, 11X16" in size on Epson enhanced matte paper.

First print looks real nice, with very neutral colors and good sharpness. Neutral color much better than I was ever able to do with the Epson inks and driver, but sharpness appears about the same. As good, but at least to my eyes not better.

Wow, but printing with the QTR is *really* slow. Like maybe 5X as long as with the Epson drivers. Is this normal? I was not expecting such a difference.

Next step. Will see if the K7 inks work on an OHP like Pictorico.

Sandy King

 

[sanking]

Next step. Will see if the K7 inks work on an OHP like Pictorico.

Sandy King

OK, talking to myself here since no one else seems interested.

The K7 inks do appear to work with Epsond 2200 and Pictorico. No pooling of inks or pizza wheel marks that I could see with nomal processing.

Sandy King

 

[Peter Langham]

Sandy,

Thanks for the reports on K7. I would be interested in your results for negatives. If it works it seems like it would be a very simple approach.
QTR can run slow. When I was running my 1280 it seemed to take at least twice as long as the Epson driver. It seems like there is less difference with my 3800.

Peter

 

[sanking]

OK, another update.

I printed the 360 dpi tonal palette from Mark Nelson PDN using the Piezography K7 inks and QTR. Followed dirrections fron Inkjet mall, choosing for Curve 1 and Curve 2 the Epson Enhanced Matte profile. The tonal palette printed on Pictorico with no problem, with an initial density range of about log 3.4 (UV read). I made a second print reducing the ink density by minus 15% and the the DR dropped to about log 2.2. Since that is about perfect for my needs I used that setting and made two larger palettes for test purposes using the 2880 dpi setting but one with the Better setting, the other with the Faster setting. They both seem very smooth, but the Faster setting actually appears smoother.

Next step will be to print the two tonal palettes in a UV process to see how smooth the two versions print.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been using an Epson 2200 for several years, printing with the PDN system and an emerald green negative. The results have been very good, save for a problem of banding that I have had with some scenes that contain a lot of large high value areas. I will be very interested to see if the Piezography system eliminates the banding. My intuition is that it will, but we shall see.

Since I have not yet figured out how to linearize using QTR I will just read the palette densities with a densitometer and set a curve using the PDN system and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator II, which works much faster than the original system.

Since this really appears to be working, I am now wondering about ink cost. Does anyone know if it is possible to refill the Piezography K7 cartridges?

Oh, and one more thing. I am going to retract an earlier conclusion. I looked carefully at the one-pixel grid on the tonal palette I am working with and it definitely printed sharper on Pictorico with Piezograhy than with the Epson inks and driver.

Sandy

 

[Platonumb]

Hello Sandy,
I use the same printer and for my porpoises I use a red orange negative
as I often print pure Platinum with the glycerin oxalate developer and
I like it,, could you say what your emerald green numbers are?
cheers Platonumb

 

[sanking]

The emerald green negatives on Pictorico 2200 with made using an RGB setting of G=255, B=50 and R=0. This gives a DR of about log 2.0. I also made a lot of negatives with this printer on the PhotoWarehouse OHP, with a setting of G=255, B=30, R=0, which gives a DR of about 2.0.

Sandy

 

[donbga]

OK, talking to myself here since no one else seems interested.

The K7 inks do appear to work with Epsond 2200 and Pictorico. No pooling of inks or pizza wheel marks that I could see with nomal processing.

Sandy King

Sandy,

I for one am interested in hearing about your upcoming tests with the K7 inkset. Keep us posted, please!

Don

 

[sanking]

Sandy,

I for one am interested in hearing about your upcoming tests with the K7 inkset. Keep us posted, please!

Don

Don,

I plan to run some tests tomorrow on a UV process to check smoothness of the K7 negatives. Will probably use VDB since it is quick and easy and the results should be a good indicator for other processes.

One negative finding so far is that the K7 inks do not appear compatible with the PhotoWarehouse OHP, and I have a lot of this that was special cut for my 7X17 and 12X20 formats. But the Red array on the B9080 appears to work fine with the PhotoWarehouse OHP.

Sandy

 

[Ron-san]

The K7 inks do appear to work with Epsond 2200 and Pictorico. No pooling of inks or pizza wheel marks that I could see with nomal processing.

Sandy King

Sandy--
Since you have set up the Piezography system and it appears to print OK on Pictorico OHP, you and I are in position to do an interesting experiment if you want to give it a shot.
There are at least two approaches to ink utilization for maximum tonal smoothness that I know of. One approach is the one you are trying. Load the printer with seven inks of varying grayness, then use a driver that causes these inks to be used sequentially. That means, the lightest ink prints the light tones up to its maximum density, then the next darker ink takes over and prints up to its maximum density, and then the next darker ink and so forth until the darkest black ink finishes the process.
The second approach is the one I have been using which uses the standard Epson Ultrachrome ink set of two black inks (LK and K) and five colored inks (LM, LC plus C, M, and Y). In this approach the LK ink is set to print the light tones up to its maximum density, then the K ink takes over and prints the rest of the tones up to maximum black (ie, LK and K print the entire tonal range between them). To fill in holes and give smooth tones the other two light inks, LM and LC, are set to follow the distribution of the LK ink while the other three dark inks, M, C, and Y, are set to follow the distribution of the K ink. Thus, in the critical dark areas of the negative (controlling the light areas of the print), all seven inks are contributing to some extent.
Which of these approaches gives the smoothest print tones? I would really like to do a comparison and find out.
So, here is the experiment I propose. I use my method to print a negative properly calibrated for printing on a pure palladium emulsion (no contrast agent added). I send that negative to you, as well as a CD with a digital file of the test image. You take the image file and print out a negative using your piezography method. Then you make palladium prints from both my negative and your negative and show the results around and tell us all what the conclusion may be.
Whaddaya think?? Cheers, Ron-san

 

[sanking]

Ron,

Or perhaps I was thinking of the issue only in terms of the type of smoothness inside individual steps on the wedge. The test might be revealing in showing how tonal values are represented across the print in a continuum.


Sandy King

 

[Ron-san]

Ron,

Or perhaps I was thinking of the issue only in terms of the type of smoothness inside individual steps on the wedge. The test might be revealing in showing how tonal values are represented across the print in a continuum.


Sandy King

Sandy-- No reason we cannot do both. We could print a step wedge, plus a continous gradient from white to black, and maybe for fun, some image that needs very smooth tones.?? Just give me the go ahead and I will make some negatives on my end. And I will need your snail mail address so I can send negatives, CDs and other such stuff.

I think you will agree that a lot of verbiage has been spilled on the hybrid site over the suitability of various inks or combos of ink for making smooth tones. Maybe we can inject some actual data into the discussion??

Let me know. Cheers, Ron

 

[sanking]

Ron,

OK, go ahead and send the materials and I will give it a shot.

You might also think about setting up a negative to print on a smooth silver paper. Ilford Galerie FB would be ideal. That would really test any potential difference in sharpness or smoothness.

My mailing address is ,

Sandy King
136 Stonegate Court
Easley, SC 29642.

 

[Ron-san]

Ron,

OK, go ahead and send the materials and I will give it a shot.

You might also think about setting up a negative to print on a smooth silver paper. Ilford Galerie FB would be ideal. That would really test any potential difference in sharpness or smoothness.

Sandy--

It shall be done.

I will see about a negative for silver gelatin printing as well. Is Galerie a variable contrast paper? If not, what contrast paper should I adjust the negative for? In my silver gelatin experiments I have usually used variable contrast and adjusted the profile to print while using the grade 1 filter. But I can go other routes as well. I usually am not happy with silver gelatin prints made from digital negatives because too many of the printer artifacts show through. But, you are right, it would be a severe test of the system.

Cheers, Ron

 

[sanking]

Sandy--

It shall be done.

I will see about a negative for silver gelatin printing as well. Is Galerie a variable contrast paper? If not, what contrast paper should I adjust the negative for? In my silver gelatin experiments I have usually used variable contrast and adjusted the profile to print while using the grade 1 filter. But I can go other routes as well. I usually am not happy with silver gelatin prints made from digital negatives because too many of the printer artifacts show through. But, you are right, it would be a severe test of the system.

Cheers, Ron

Galerie is available either as a graded or VC paper. I have some of both on hand so whatever you want to use is ok with me. The Piezography digital negatives should be neutral to the graded blue sensitive paper as well as the VC material with blue and green sensitivity. Not sure how the composite black negatives you plan to make will work, but they should be mostly neutral to both processes as well.

Also, for the pallaidum prints use the smoothest surface you can find. COT 320 would be ideal, and I have some of it on hand as well.

I am going to be in and out of the house for the next several weeks as I am planning a bit of travel, but will get to the testing as time permits.

BTW, I assume the comparison printer for both tests is the Epson 2200?



Sandy

 

[Ron-san]

Galerie is available either as a graded or VC paper. I have some of both on hand so whatever you want to use is ok with me. The Piezography digital negatives should be neutral to the graded blue sensitive paper as well as the VC material with blue and green sensitivity. Not sure how the composite black negatives you plan to make will work, but they should be mostly neutral to both processes as well.

Also, for the pallaidum prints use the smoothest surface you can find. COT 320 would be ideal, and I have some of it on hand as well.

I am going to be in and out of the house for the next several weeks as I am planning a bit of travel, but will get to the testing as time permits.

BTW, I assume the comparison printer for both tests is the Epson 2200?



Sandy

Sandy--

I will use my 2200 to keep things simple. This means I must update some of my QTR profiles for the 2200 and that may take a week or so. But it will make for a better comparison.

I intend to print the negative and then send it to you to make the palladium print. Is that OK? In that way we eliminate some of the variables if you do all the palladium printing.

Thinking it over, I should use the graded Galerie. My colored negs are probably not the best for VC papers due to the weird contrast effects of the various ink colors. Again, I may make the neg, tailored for grade 2 perhaps, and then send it to you to print.

This will be fun. Cheers, Ron

 

[sanking]

Ron,

Sounds good. I agree that one person should do all of the printing if the comparison is to be fair and objective.



Sandy