Perceptol formula - can I mix it in my lab?

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eumenius

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Hello friends,

I wonder if someone has a clue about the composition of Ilford Perceptol? Everything is known about Microphen, so I always made it by myself - but I am still unable to find anything concerning Perceptol :sad: Maybe someone has the recipe to share? :smile:

To be frank, I always wondered why the companies are keeping their proprietary formulae under such a mystical veil - I am absolutely sure that even if everything would be published in open sources, they would still have a wealth of consumers of their original shiny packages! My own experience tells me that almost everybody has enough of chemistry experiments in the darkroom, and wants to take a ready developer off the shelf :smile:) That's probably the way to spend more time poring over the pictorial side of photography :smile:

Regards,

Zhenya
 

David A. Goldfarb

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It's not too different from D-23, which is a very easy formula to mix. You might tweak it to get the results you want.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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According to the Iford MSDS for Perceptol:

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part A contains
Methyl p-amino-phenol Sulfite (Metol)

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part B contains:

Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Chloride
Sodium Tripolyphosphate

Thus, it is like D-23 plus Sodium Chloride and Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

Take a look in the APUG Chemistry Recipes section for D-23 and Microdol-X substitute recipes.
 

titrisol

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A Perceptol-like formula was posted here by Martin a few weeks ago:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

martin@jangowski.de on 10/31/2004 said:
I'm currently testing a similar formula (5g Metol, 100g Sulfite, 33g NaCl, 1g Boric acid to 1l solution). First tests with APX100 (11:00min 1+3, 24deg, rotation) gave an CI of 0.64, excellent sharpness and the finest grain I ever had with APX100. I can't compare with Microdol-X, I never tried the stuff. Speed is about 40 ASA, I rate the APX100 64 ASA with D76H 1+1 with a similar CI.

Martin
 

aldevo

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Tom Hoskinson said:
According to the Iford MSDS for Perceptol:

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part A contains
Methyl p-amino-phenol Sulfite (Metol)

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part B contains:

Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Chloride
Sodium Tripolyphosphate

Thus, it is like D-23 plus Sodium Chloride and Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

Take a look in the APUG Chemistry Recipes section for D-23 and Microdol-X substitute recipes.

Perhaps...

And potentially a bunch of stuff each of which represents < 1.0% of the bulk mass of Perceptol and therefore isn't required to appear on the MSDS...

MSDS's are a horrifically unreliable source if you are trying to get an exahustive list of the chemical constituents of a product. For example, most Phenidone-Hydroquinone developers do not list Phenidone derivatives on the MSDS because it is present in such small quantities that it is not required to be listed.
 

Ian Grant

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Tom Hoskinson said:
According to the Iford MSDS for Perceptol:

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part A contains
Methyl p-amino-phenol Sulfite (Metol)

PERCEPTOL DEVELOPER, Part B contains:

Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Chloride
Sodium Tripolyphosphate

Thus, it is like D-23 plus Sodium Chloride and Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

Take a look in the APUG Chemistry Recipes section for D-23 and Microdol-X substitute recipes.
Perhaps this makes interesting reading as it was published sometime around the inroduction of Perceptol:

TECHNICAL INFORMATION SHEET P10

FINE GRAIN DEVELOPMENT

The graininess of images obtained with conventional developers, i.e. Metol- or Phenidone-hydroquinone carbonate developers, is sufficiently fine for contact prints and moderate enlargements, but when very big enlargements are made from small negatives graininess becomes increasingly apparent.
Special developers have been formulated to produce images of reduced graininess. Many of these developers restrict grain size by dissolving some of the silver forming the image. Since this causes a reduction in density a longer exposure is needed to achieve a satisfactory density for printing. This loss of speed is characteristic of most fine grain developers but one developer which is exceptional in achieving a high speed/grain ratio, (i.e. it combines high speed with fine grain), is Ilford Microphen Fine Grain Developer. A speed increase of at least 50 per cent is possible with most materials and it has the advantages common to Phenidone based developers in that it has a long working life and it is unlikely to cause staining on fingers or clothes.
Most other fine grain developers may be described in one of four categories as follows:
Metol- or Phenidone-hydroquinone borax developers, para-phenylene diamine developers, developers containing silver halide solvents, physical developers ,
Metol- or Phenidone-hydroquinone borax developers
These are characterised by low alkalinity and a high concentration of sodium sulphite. Ilford ID-11 and ID-68 are of this type and are based on Metol and Phenidone respectively.
The formula of ID-11 is:
Metol 2 g.
Sodium sulphite, anhyd. 100g.
Hydroquinone 5 g.
Borax 2 g.
Water to make 1,000 cc.

The formula of ID-68 is:
Sodium sulphite, anhyd. 85 g.
Hydroquinone 5 g.
Borax 7 g.
Boric acid 2 g.
Potassium bromide 1 g.
Phenidone 0.13 g.
Water to make . 1,000 cc.

These formulae are for working strength solutions which are used without further dilution. .
One advantage of this type of formula is that no increase in exposure is necessary; another is that development times are not inconveniently long. The scope of such developers is not limited to small negatives, they are equally suitable as general negative developers.

Para-phenylene diamine developers
Developers in this group contain para-phenylene diamine and sodium sulphite with varying concentrations of glycin. They produce brownish images which show a very considerable reduction in grain compared with conventional developers but they require an increase in exposure of from 11/4 to 4 times, according to the type of developer and negative material. This loss of film speed may limit their usefulness. The developers in this group which achieve the greatest reduction in grain size are those which require the greatest increase in exposure.
The maximum contrast obtainable with these developers is rather low and development times tend to be long. They also have the disadvantage that they are toxic and stain fingers and equipment.
.
Developers containing silver halide solvents
Certain fine grain formulae contain silver halide solvents such as hypo and thiocyanate. These depend for their action on the fact that some of the silver dissolved during development is redeposited in a very fine form to reinforce the final image. Ilford ID-48 Developer is of this class. Such developers give considerable reduction in grain size but require 50 to 100 per cent extra exposure. Both Ilford ID-l1 and ID-2 developers may be simply modified to work in this way.
ID-11 Add ammonium chloride to ID-1l in the proportion of 20 g. per 500 cc working solution. Camera exposures should be increased by about 50 per cent and the development times are double those specified for ID-1 1.
ID-2 To ID-2 diluted 1 + 2 add ammonium chloride in the proportion of 5 g. per 500 cc. developer.
Physical developers
These developers contain silver in solution and the developed image consists of very finely divided silver deposited by the action of the developer on the latent image instead of being derived from the silver halides in the emulsion. They give extremely fine grained images which are to some extent independent of the nature of the negative emulsion used. Such developers have, however, found only limited application. Their activity and the fog level they produce fluctuates greatly according to the concentrations of the constituent chemicals, consequently great care is needed in making up the formulae. A high standard of cleanliness is required to avoid contamination of the developer and regular checks on activity are necessary.

Ilford, Phenidone and Microphen are trade marks
ILFORD LIMITED.
ILFORD . ESSEX
TIS/PlO-5/B65 . Printed in England

Should add that ID-48 is almost certainly Perceptol
 
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Tom Hoskinson

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aldevo said:
Perhaps...

And potentially a bunch of stuff each of which represents < 1.0% of the bulk mass of Perceptol and therefore isn't required to appear on the MSDS...

MSDS's are a horrifically unreliable source if you are trying to get an exahustive list of the chemical constituents of a product. For example, most Phenidone-Hydroquinone developers do not list Phenidone derivatives on the MSDS because it is present in such small quantities that it is not required to be listed.

In my experience, the MSDS of every Phenidone-Hydroquinone developer I've looked at does list the Phenidone and/or Phenidone derivatives. If you have a counterexample, please post it.
 

Ryuji

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Tom Hoskinson said:
In my experience, the MSDS of every Phenidone-Hydroquinone developer I've looked at does list the Phenidone and/or Phenidone derivatives. If you have a counterexample, please post it.

Fujifilm does not list ingredients less than 1% of the total weight. Fujidol E and Super Prodol most likely contain phenidone or its derivative but their MSDS do not list any.

Back to the original question, the MSDS for Perceptol quoted earlier is most likely one from old literature (1990s). More recent MSDS indicates bromide, not chloride as a fine grain agent.

I personally think that developers like Perceptol and Microdol-X have little overall advantage over phenidone-ascorbate developers of very low pH, which are capable of very fine grain with 80g/L of sulfite without any loss of speed.
 

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Ryuji said:
... developers of very low pH ...

Metol will work with a ph of in the upper sevens. I wonder,
have you established an optimal ph for metol in producing
maximum emulsion speed.

I switched from the sulfite based D23 to the carbonate
based FX-1. I've not done any exact comparisons but
think the higher ph pulls more speed from the film.

In general do you think a developing agent is off or
on. Im inclined to think they become slowly more
active as the ph increases and have greater
speed pulling power. Dan
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Ryuji said:
...Back to the original question, the MSDS for Perceptol quoted earlier is most likely one from old literature (1990s). More recent MSDS indicates bromide, not chloride as a fine grain agent...

I checked with Ilford; the 1995 Perceptol MSDS cites sodium chloride and the 2002 MSDS cites sodium bromide.
 

Mark Layne

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Ryuji said:
Fujifilm does not list ingredients less than 1% of the total weight. Fujidol E and Super Prodol most likely contain phenidone or its derivative but their MSDS do not list any.

Back to the original question, the MSDS for Perceptol quoted earlier is most likely one from old literature (1990s). More recent MSDS indicates bromide, not chloride as a fine grain agent.

I personally think that developers like Perceptol and Microdol-X have little overall advantage over phenidone-ascorbate developers of very low pH, which are capable of very fine grain with 80g/L of sulfite without any loss of speed.
The new package of Perceptol I just received lists Sodium Chloride
Mark
 
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