Panthermic 777 replenishment

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MMfoto

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I've just started using Panthermic 777, from Bluegrass "packaging," and have a question about the optimal starting volume for use with replenishment. They sent me four packets, each with enough chems to make one gallon. I've mixed one, and am using another for replenishment.

My question is if one gallon of total solution is a desirable quantity for long term replenishment? My main reason for concern is the article on unblinkingeye.com that states to use a larger than needed volume for processing to achieve consistent development with 777, and that leeds me to wonder if there are benefits to a larger overall volume of stock?

Oh and this is my first posting on apug. Hi!
 

c6h6o3

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Use as much solution as you can. When I tray develop 8 x 10 sheet film I pour in the whole gallon to develop two sheets. For rollfilm I use about a quart of solution in a tank where it only takes about 16 oz. to cover the film. If I had a bigger tank I'd use it. About every 8 sheets or 8 rolls of 120 or 32 sheets of 4 x 5 I replenish with 6 oz. of developer from the second gallon. I mixed up this batch last year when there was snow on the ground (around the end of November, I think) and it's still going strong. I've still got about 3/4 of a gallon of replenisher.

After a dozen rolls or so it begins to look like the poster child for a toxic waste dump. Don't worry. It'll produce negatives capable of breathtaking prints no matter how funky it looks. I think mine must be supporting numerous ecosystems at this point.
 
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MMfoto

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It sounds like you are using only one gallon of stock too, correct?

As for development, I've been using a four reel tank to develop a single roll of film. But I don't entirely understand why this developer needs a larger than normal quantity of developer. Is it that developer activity fluctuates during development, and that having a larger volume of developer limits and evens out the amount of developer exhaustion during the development cycle?
 

c6h6o3

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MMfoto said:
It sounds like you are using only one gallon of stock too, correct?

Correct. No more than 2 sheets of 8 x 10 in that gallon.
 
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MMfoto

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Doesn't it make more sence to replenish after each use as opposed to dumping and replacing 2/3 the batch periodically? Or should you do both? The instructions that are included say to replenish a small amount(1 1/2oz if I recall)after each roll of 135.
 

removed account4

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i used to use dk50 quite a bit, and if 777 is anything like that ---
you replenish it after each run, but then when you process "X" amount of film through it, you dump 2/3 of it and mix the olde with the new. the olde stuff "mellows" the new batch, so you don't have to wait as long for your film to look "perfect" . the cloudy/mirky "toxic waste dump" effect is what you are looking for! so your film isn't too contrasty, but "just right" ....
at least that was the way dk50 worked ... :smile:
 

c6h6o3

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MMfoto said:
Doesn't it make more sence to replenish after each use as opposed to dumping and replacing 2/3 the batch periodically? Or should you do both? The instructions that are included say to replenish a small amount(1 1/2oz if I recall)after each roll of 135.

I only replenish every 8 rolls (or sheet equivalent) or so. Been working great for me. I have not had the need to replace my ripened stock. Bear in mind that the usage pattern Fred was talking about in the Unblinkingeye article involved hundreds of rolls per week through a four gallon tank.
 

k_jupiter

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I have been replenishing 1 1/2 oz per 80 in sq with my homebrew. No noticable changes in development so far (two months) but no quantifiable data either. Seems to me to keep the level up continuously would be the more sensible way to approach this. I have just done some testig on the new J&C100 (lucky?) 4x5 film so I have a benchmark. The curve looks pretty straight I have a calculated speed of 100 with an average 'G' of 0.82 with an SBR of 4.1. Does all this make sense?

Anyhow, real life results are quite nice with the Buffaloe 777 developer.

tim in san jose
 

DKT

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k_jupiter said:
I have been replenishing 1 1/2 oz per 80 in sq with my homebrew. No noticable changes in development so far (two months) but no quantifiable data either. Seems to me to keep the level up continuously would be the more sensible way to approach this. I have just done some testig on the new J&C100 (lucky?) 4x5 film so I have a benchmark. The curve looks pretty straight I have a calculated speed of 100 with an average 'G' of 0.82 with an SBR of 4.1. Does all this make sense?

tim in san jose

well, it just depends on the replenisher's makeup. If you're using basically the same stuff you start off the fresh tank with--which sounds like that's the case?--then it should be really next to impossible to over-replenish the working developer. But, if you use a developer like D76 and D76R, this isn't the case, since D76R is lacking in restrainer. D76 is real fussy & tempermental when it comes to replenishment because it can get all out of whack and the pH can be screwed up as well.

the s.o.p. with repl. developers has always been to toss the working tank out when the amount of repl. added equals the original working volume. In practice, you either take out the amount you add--or replace the carryover amount. You really try to use as little as possible to keep the activity up. The time when you'd have to use more, is really when you're not running enough film through it or using it everyday.

With TMAX RS--I change out the tank every 4-6 weeks completely. This gives me a chance to clean the bromide sludge off the tank. When you start up a new tank--it's as John says above in his post, you have 2 options--you either start fresh, the film runs hot by about 10% and then slowly declines to lose maybe a third to half stop and levels off. At this point---the tank is seasoned--you start replenishing. At work, we usually run test rolls or scrap film through it to chew it up. Or, we just pull 10%. At any rate, it will run hot--then it will fall off in activity and this is where you want to be. This is very similar to the way E6 works as well.

The second option would be to use a starter to pre-season the tank. TMAX RS uses First Dev E6 starter for example. By taking a 1/3 of the working tank out & adding fresh--you would be doing something similar. Basically adding back in the byproducts--bromide, oxidised developer etc.--to get your new tank into a steady state. I ran a small one-gallon tank of XTOL like this for about a year and a half. But I had to agressively repl at almost twice the rec. volumes because I wasn't using it enough to keep the activity up. Just like E6 again--the key is in how often & how much you use it.

You can monitor it a couple of ways. Easiest is just to eyeball your negs & prints if you know what to look for. You could adjust the rate up & down based on the contrast of the negs and what it takes to get a normal print. The other way is to use b&w control strips. I do this off & on with kodak strips. Kodak's process control system is more like E6 really--but you could use Ilford's system more readily.

With Ilford--you do three runs of strips and average the densities of the plots to get your aims. Whereas, Kodak gives you starting aims to work back against (like E6). You will never be able to get a run to match completely from one to the next. It's the nature of the beast really--a happy process is one that drifts around a bit in the plots (within the tolerances). Once you get the aimpoints for your process--you should be able to run the strips at whatever intervals you decide. Maybe weekly, or before each run--I dunno, it's up to you really. This way, you'd have a standard to work against. The strips are used for more than tracking the CI--you can monitor the fix as well, and there's a concept of "speed" that isn't the same as film speed. It's the speed of the working developer basically. The process activity. You can also use them to figure out starting points for other film types.

One thing i do alot of, instead of running control strips all the time--is to shoot grayscales in with my studio stuff. I understand this probably isn't too practical for everyday shooting--but anyways, with a densitometer I can measure the density range of the neg and get an idea how the process is running. Really not too far off a control strip, although you don't have that level of consistency that you do from a frozen box of strips.

fwiw--I have never used them, but Ilford strips are on FP4. Kodak is TMY stock, and you apply a correction factor from the strip for other types of film.You could also make your own that would probably do a good enough job. As long as you exposed them all at the same time, and kept them frozen until needed. In my experience though--control strips would be necessary for a developer like D76, but if you use the same stuff--you can eyeball the quality pretty well.

Hope this makes sense.

KT
 

garryl

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MMfoto said:
They sent me four packets, each with enough chems to make one gallon. I've mixed one, and am using another for replenishment.

!

question of clearification; they sent you dry chemicals- not liquid?
 

c6h6o3

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My TMY negatives developed in 777 have been noticeably thin of late, even with extended development. N+1 for 19 minutes at 72 degrees prints on grade 3 Azo with great difficulty.

Bottom Line: somewhere in the 6-9 months range it depletes, no matter how much you replenish. At least I think so. I'll order another 4 gallons tonight. After I mix up a fresh couple of gallons and try it out we'll know for sure. Until fresh 777 arrives I'm using Pyrocat.
 

c6h6o3

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garryl said:
question of clearification; they sent you dry chemicals- not liquid?

That's how it's packaged. And the mixing is critical. PM me if you would like to benefit from my mistakes.
 
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MMfoto

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garryl said:
question of clearification; they sent you dry chemicals- not liquid?

Yes, they sent me individual packets of dry chems.
 
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