Over washing destroyed my Efke 100?

[matti]

I just ruined two rolls of Efke 100 in 35mm.

I did just like I always do: I exposed at 80 and developed in Pyrocat-HD 4 ml A + 4 ml B + 600 ml water for 18,5 mins in 21 deg C for 18,5 mins with agitation 1 min + 10 sec every 3 mins. Water stop and fix as normal. Then the phone rang and I forgot the negatives in the running water for about 50 minutes.

Then the negatives of both rolls came out looking extremely thin. Like they have been overexposed. I don't notice any visible stain.

Could the long washing have done this? Or did I screw up in some other way? I am pretty sure the Pyrocat is ok, as I developed two other rolls just before that.

/matti

 

[Gatsby1923]

I just ruined two rolls of Efke 100 in 35mm.

I did just like I always do: I exposed at 80 and developed in Pyrocat-HD 4 ml A + 4 ml B + 600 ml water for 18,5 mins in 21 deg C for 18,5 mins with agitation 1 min + 10 sec every 3 mins. Water stop and fix as normal. Then the phone rang and I forgot the negatives in the running water for about 50 minutes.

Then the negatives of both rolls came out looking extremely thin. Like they have been overexposed. I don't notice any visible stain.

Could the long washing have done this? Or did I screw up in some other way? I am pretty sure the Pyrocat is ok, as I developed two other rolls just before that.

/matti

Over washing should not do that, and 50 minutes isn’t really over washing. I have seen hot water strip the emulsion right off but not make the negs thin. My guess would be you either accidentally mixed your pyro wrong or used the wrong developing temp. I have also seen some one accidentally mix D-76 with Fixer and that made some VERY thin negs. I would shoot a test roll and process with fresh chemistry and see what happens.

Dave M.

 

[JLP]

Matti,
Not good to get phone calls in the middle of something that inportant. Without being an expert in Pyrocat yet although working on it cause it is a wonderful developer.
Looks to me like you are using a very dilluted mix, 4 + 4ml in 600ml water is less dev. than i have seen used before.
If your negatives came out thin it is more likely a sign of underexposure or under developement than overexposure. Prolonged washing should not make your negatives thin.
I'm sure someone will be able to pinpoint your exact problem here shortly


jan

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Over washing should not do that, and 50 minutes isn’t really over washing. I have seen hot water strip the emulsion right off but not make the negs thin. My guess would be you either accidentally mixed your pyro wrong or used the wrong developing temp. I have also seen some one accidentally mix D-76 with Fixer and that made some VERY thin negs. I would shoot a test roll and process with fresh chemistry and see what happens.

Dave M.

I agree with Dave and add the following comments and questions.

Very thin negatives often result from underexposure or underdevelopment or a combination of both.

1. How old are your Pyrocat A and B solutions? Did you mix them yourself?

2. Is your Pyrocat A solution mixed in water or in Glycol? What color is your Pyrocat A solution?

3. What was the color of your Pyrocat working developer solution?

4. Pyrocat stain is often not very visible. How do the negs print?

 

[matti]

Hi and thanks all for the ideas. I am a bit reluctant to try more of my "real" films before I sort this out.

Of course I ment underexposure I seem to always think backwards when thinking about negatives.

Seems like the washing is out of the question then.

To answer Toms questions.
1. The Pyrocat is about two months old. My chemist spouse mixed it at her lab. It was bought in kit from Photographers formula and has workt fine before.

2. It is mixed in dist water. The a-solution is slightly grey. (I have some unmixed catechol left and it is brown in colour.

3. The working solution has no colour before the developement and is a bit brown after.

4. I will try to print a neg tonight, but I am not hopeful.


I don't really think i mixed anything wrong. It could have happened, of course, but 4 ml is so little and the syringe just goes to 10, so my memory of mixing this is quite detailed.

What might have happened is that I got small ammounts of fixer in the tank. I developed two rolls of fp2+ in pyrocat-hd before the efke-rolls (they look perfect btw). and I just washed out the tank and spirals quickly, and loaded it with the efke films while the other films were washed in a small bathtub. But the start of the film look black, if small ammounts of fixer was the problem, I suppose it would look grey, wouldn't it?

/matti

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

QA

Hi and thanks all for the ideas. I am a bit reluctant to try more of my "real" films before I sort this out.

Of course I ment underexposure I seem to always think backwards when thinking about negatives.

Seems like the washing is out of the question then.

To answer Toms questions.
1. The Pyrocat is about two months old. My chemist spouse mixed it at her lab. It was bought in kit from Photographers formula and has workt fine before.

2. It is mixed in dist water. The a-solution is slightly grey. (I have some unmixed catechol left and it is brown in colour.

3. The working solution has no colour before the developement and is a bit brown after.

4. I will try to print a neg tonight, but I am not hopeful.


I don't really think i mixed anything wrong. It could have happened, of course, but 4 ml is so little and the syringe just goes to 10, so my memory of mixing this is quite detailed.

What might have happened is that I got small ammounts of fixer in the tank. I developed two rolls of fp2+ in pyrocat-hd before the efke-rolls (they look perfect btw). and I just washed out the tank and spirals quickly, and loaded it with the efke films while the other films were washed in a small bathtub. But the start of the film look black, if small ammounts of fixer was the problem, I suppose it would look grey, wouldn't it?

/matti

matti, this may indeed be a fixer contamination problem.

I suggest mixing 1ml of Pyrocat A with 1ml of Pyrocat B in 100ml of water (mix this in a clean glass container - like a beaker). The resulting solution should be transparent with a light yellow to peach color.

Immerse a 1 inch piece of exposed film in this solution - the film emulsion should turn a dense black in 2-3 minutes. If it does not, then I would mix up a fresh batch of pyrocat.

 

[matti]

As I couldn't stand the uncertainity of this I rolled up 12 frames of efke 100 and took some pics watering in the garden (I got some help, as you can see.). Then I developed exactly as before, well not exactly, as it worked fine this time! I am puting my bet on some fixer staying in the spirals.

thanks for the help.

/matti

 

[Donald Miller]

I just ruined two rolls of Efke 100 in 35mm.

I did just like I always do: I exposed at 80 and developed in Pyrocat-HD 4 ml A + 4 ml B + 600 ml water for 18,5 mins in 21 deg C for 18,5 mins with agitation 1 min + 10 sec every 3 mins. Water stop and fix as normal. Then the phone rang and I forgot the negatives in the running water for about 50 minutes.

Then the negatives of both rolls came out looking extremely thin. Like they have been overexposed. I don't notice any visible stain.

Could the long washing have done this? Or did I screw up in some other way? I am pretty sure the Pyrocat is ok, as I developed two other rolls just before that.

/matti

The usual dilution that most use on Pyrocat for silver printing is 1-1-100 rather then the 1-1-150 that you used. The dilution that you chose may be marginal and lead to underdevelopment...depending on time, inherent scene contrast etc.

 

[pauldc]

There may be another cause for this - in my experience certain batches of Efke 100 come out at a much slower EI. I have used the film in roll format and 8*10 that comes out about EI 25. Other batches seem to be EI100 ok. So when I have used film at EI100 that was much slower I have also had terribly thin negatives. Until I realised this I was tearing my hair out trying to work out what I had done differently in my developing technique. There was a thread a little back that mentioned a similar problem for a few other users of this film.

 

[Ole]

Yet another possibility:

How's your tap water?

Where I lived before, it was great 99% of the time. But since I lived within 300m of the main reservoir, I tended to get "lumps" of additives. The water was generally very pure, slightly acidic, and without smell. But every once in a while it would come out with a strong reek of chlorine, or alkaline, or "muddy".

I have a suspicion that too much chlorine could bleach the image with a very long wash...

 

[tim atherton]

The usual dilution that most use on Pyrocat for silver printing is 1-1-100 rather then the 1-1-150 that you used. The dilution that you chose may be marginal and lead to underdevelopment...depending on time, inherent scene contrast etc.

my usual time for Efke 100 (@100iso) in Pyrocat is 2+2+100 @20c for 8min


even at your dilution and @80iso for 18.5m @21c seems like a long development time?

 

[Jim Jones]

. . . But the start of the film look black, if small ammounts of fixer was the problem, I suppose it would look grey, wouldn't it?

/matti

Fixer contamination could affect the image without noticably thinning the grossly overexposed start of the film. If the Efke film has factory printing on the edges, that can be used as a rough guide to analyze exposure or developing problems.

 

[Donald Miller]

There may be another cause for this - in my experience certain batches of Efke 100 come out at a much slower EI. I have used the film in roll format and 8*10 that comes out about EI 25. Other batches seem to be EI100 ok. So when I have used film at EI100 that was much slower I have also had terribly thin negatives. Until I realised this I was tearing my hair out trying to work out what I had done differently in my developing technique. There was a thread a little back that mentioned a similar problem for a few other users of this film.

Good point...I have experienced this on one occasion too...

 

[matti]

Since I have taken many rolls from the same 30 m roll of film, that can be ruled out. I have never smelled chlorine in the water here, but of course I have no idea about the water quality, other than the city bragging about how good it is.

The 1:1:150 dilution has been working fine before. But I don't think I have used it on two full 36-pictures-films in one tank before, so maybe this could be it. Would 2 ml of A-solution and 2 ml of B-solution of Pyrocat-HD per 36 frames of 35 mm film be ennough? The negatives are very thin, though, so this change must be quite sudden or I should have noticed if I had developed a 24 frame roll.

So, old fixer in the spiral or the dilution of the Pyrocat are the suspects, or maybe I measured wrong.

/matti

 

[noseoil]

Matti, the 1:1:150 dilution and your time / temperature should be fine. I typically use 300ml per roll as my "normal" mixture. This is my standard with efke 100, but I shoot it a bit slower (25-64, depends on how I feel at the time). It sounds like you may have had a contamination problem. The fixer will do it, the water can do it, but your test roll looks ok for a quick check. I usually rinse my 35mm film in the tank, so I don't worry about residual fixer in the spirals. Best, tim

 

[matti]

Hi Tim,

I will continue to use the 1:1:150 dilution and don't suspect the volume. It is good to know that you didn't have this problem. Efke 100 and Pyrocat-hd is one of my favorite combinations since I tested it. It seems sensitive to underexposure, though, so I probably should rate it slower than 80. If I underexposure, the shadows look like black holes.

/matti

Matti, the 1:1:150 dilution and your time / temperature should be fine. I typically use 300ml per roll as my "normal" mixture. This is my standard with efke 100, but I shoot it a bit slower (25-64, depends on how I feel at the time). It sounds like you may have had a contamination problem. The fixer will do it, the water can do it, but your test roll looks ok for a quick check. I usually rinse my 35mm film in the tank, so I don't worry about residual fixer in the spirals. Best, tim