Open tray RA-4 developing: how serious is prolonged air exposure?

[MattKing]

I might pick up one of the Harbor Freight LED flashlights next time they're free and replace the LED(s), and then run it on a rechargeable lithium cell; that should run for hours on a charge, and it's hard to get cheaper...

I'm willing to bet Donald is on a first name basis with the staff at his local Harbour Freight store.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Actually, I only go in there a couple times a year. I've gotten what I need from them in the way of hammers, measuring tools, etc. and haven't yet killed the couple power tools they sold me.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I had some dude tell me how great the warranty was at Harbor Freight. He bought a $20 grinder and it blew up after 6 min of use. So he went back and they gave him another one for free. I asked him how long that one lasted. "Four minutes". I sold Metabo and Fein grinders at the time, and ran one of the largest Festool dealerships in the country, so gave those kinds of people a blank stare ...

 

[Donald Qualls]

And I've seen our customers burn up Metabo grinders (armature and field crispy, housing melted) in less than a week. Abuse anything and it'll fail quickly. Don't even get me started on Fein -- charging $600 for a $100 tool.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You are so full of it, Donald. Were they imported grinders from China merely paying a license to a conglomerate marketing entity, what I once contemptuously called, "Metawaukiobi" - same as today's Chinese bait and switch trash being deceptively sold under the Milwaukee brand name, or REAL Metabo from Germany? I already know the answer. Same goes for Fein. Twenty years of hard use would be an unusually low lifespan for anything Fein Industrial. They primarily make high-frequency tools anyway, requiring their own proprietary power supply. We not only sold em, but had a sizable repair facility of our own. Guess what the shipyards exclusively use around here, the naval crews, and the big Bridge maint crews? They just might know something you don't.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Were they imported grinders from China merely paying a license to a conglomerate marketing entity, what I once contemptuously called, "Metawaukiobi" - same as today's Chinese bait and switch trash being deceptively sold under the Milwaukee brand name, or REAL Metabo from Germany?

These were real Metabo grinders. Our repair parts were made in Germany, the tools were labeled the same. Please retract your ego for a few seconds, and come to the realization that people who have no investment in their tools (which includes a fair number of line workers) can abuse anything into the trash bin in a matter of hours. Note, I'm not talking about normal use (like the many hours of grinding I've gotten from my Chicago Electric grinder from Harbor Freight), I'm talking about either ignorant or intentional abuse -- the same kind that will kill the HF grinder in six or four minutes. Let the wheel's speed do the work, your tool will require new brushes from time to time and will eventually wear out the commutator or bevel gears (after many years of service); bear down until it audibly slows trying to "get more work done", and you can burn any grinder up in a single shift. I first ran into this thirteen years ago, BTW; Metabo wasn't licensing their name, and hadn't moved manufacturing to China -- they were just "the other Bosch", and the tools they made then were every bit as good as Bosch (and a little better priced) and better than DeWalt.

BTW, it wasn't just Metabo grinders that I saw treated this way -- my employer's customers are equal opportunity tool abusers. I've seen them destroy Bosch, DeWalt, Hitachi, and Makita with equal enthusiasm (Makita are cheapest to fix). Corded 120V and battery from 12V up to 60V. And it doesn't stop with angle grinders and circular saws; they do the same to nail guns, rotary hammers, table and miter saws, impact wrenches ("what air pressure were you using when the inlet assembly popped out?" "oh, only about 150 psi" in a tool rated for 90 psi).

My experience with Fein hasn't extended to anything that needs a special power supply, and won't -- I can't test such a beast and don't have the tools to work on it (or at least not on its power supply). For electrical, I fix 120V or occasionally 240V, 60Hz, single phase. I've handled their housing trade and manufacturing line tools -- oscillating tools, nibblers, shears, and the Jancy-derived magnetic base drills. Of that lot, only the mag drills aren't grossly overpriced (and the newer models are a PITA to work on). I can usually buy four tools that will do the same job and hold up about as well for the price.

But you already know the answer before I can type it.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's no my ego. I know the facts. But I've been mean enough for one day. I consistently sold more of Fein oscillating tools and blades than any other company in the country, with a number of items available only from us in the US, and that included industrial models over a thousand dollar apiece - not a penny overpriced if one factored in labor expense and sheer performance. Had the biggest selection of true industrial Makita - was the first Makita retailer in the country, back when everything was industrial quality. Was on a first name basis with the leadership and top engineers in a number of these companies. Was on specific design teams with Festool engineers. Made the prototypes for a whole new more efficient generation of construction compressors. Some CEO's were remarkably knowledgable, some sheer idiot Frat president types; what inevitably happened to their respective companies pretty much verified which type was which. But how does one burn an industrial grinder that has a built in overload circuit and outright stops if it's overheated? All the serious ones do, as well having epoxy potted armatures resistant to abrasives. Makita makes everything from toys to some of the highest quality tools in the world. I take a toy grinder onto the roof to slice gutter, so if it drops and breaks I won't cry. The good one stays in the shop. As far as brand licensing, I once had a stern face to face conversation with the CEO of Metabo about it. There were experimenting with that idea at the time. It didn't last long, and only affected a few models. But right around the time retired, Metabo was up for sale, and it appeared the buyer was going to be TTI, the same Chinese company that destroyed Milwaukee in a matter of months and turned it into just another trash import line. Metabo was a grinder and rotary hammer speciality company, so never had anywhere near the product diversity or cash as Bosch, Festo, Fein, or Makita (all four of these are privately held corporations, so resistant to hostile takeover). Ironically, only two foreign companies, Bosch and Makita, still make significant quantities of commercial electric power tools in the US anymore. Sioux is still around as a premium US mfg air tool brand, but even they have a line of import cheapo stuff, basically identical to Jet. Metabo didn't make tools here, but abrasives. They started going downhill financially during the previous recession by following the other lemmings, and did something stupid - cut nearly all their sales staff and then discouraged the few remaining ones by working them to death while cutting their commissions. Put their worst food forward. I did just the opposite and sold more and more expensive tools all through that period based on the theorem that it would make customers significantly more productive, hence both happier with the performance of better tools, as well as more profitable due to greater efficiency. It worked, and my sales kept going up and up, while the competition was going broke trying to make a profit on cheaper and cheaper toy goods. It was like an arms race, with long lines in the store spending more every hour than most places sell in a month. Sadly, my post-retirement successors have reverted to believing business-school types instead, who couldn't personally run a hot dog stand. But the owners are a good honest family, so I still wish them the best, and the property alone is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, so they don't have much to worry about. But you get my drift and can take a punch with good humor, Donald. I obviously like good darkroom equipment too.

 

[MattKing]

Metabo ......, Bosch, DeWalt, Hitachi, and Makita

Which give you the best RA-4 prints???
(from someone who himself is reasonably frequently guilty of sending threads off topic)

 

[btaylor]

Please retract your ego for a second

That’s never gonna happen, Donald! Unimaginable in size, it is relentless.

 

[Donald Qualls]

You obviously missed the "thirteen years ago part".

But you get my drift and can take a punch with good humor, Donald. I obviously like good darkroom equipment too.

I prefer darkroom equipment and camera gear I can actually own and use over items priced so I can only wonder if they're as good as claimed.

My two D2 enlargers were about $150 for the cold light unit, and $400 shipped for the color head. If I'd had to pay full/new price, I'd have had to hold onto the Aletta (plans-built wood 4x5 monorail) I had fifteen years ago and convert it into an enlarger, and spend every darkroom session fighting with it. I bought a Kiev instead of a Zorki because there was a reasonable chance I might be able to afford a real Contax if I liked the system, no way I'd ever get a genuine Leica new enough to have a single-window RF. And I've used an Argus -- never mind.

Doesn't matter how good something is, if it's completely out of reach, you'll either get the job done with what you can reach, or give up and go back to bed.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Who says good equipment is necessarily only for the rich? I've actually made more things than I've ever bought. Lenses would be an exception. I've been outright given serious darkroom gear via architectural salvage and retiring commercial labs. I have a phD in jerry-rigging. I've bartered prints from certain nice items I couldn't afford. I look across the street and see a modestly middle class family spending gosh knows how much money each year fixing up speedboats and classic motorcycles. I haven't spent anywhere near that restoring a few classic Durst enlargers. Where there's a will, there's a way. And for the other cynic lurking here - Hello, Matt - a few really good shop tools have indeed allowed me to make a big highly efficient RA4 processor quite affordably, a whole set of archival print washer, all kinds of precision enlarging devices, in a manner nothing like Don'tWant and Rinkeydinkeyobi tools could possibly provide. Overall, I've saved tens of thousands of dollars with a bit of up front consideration of what kind of shop tools I personally need, and what I don't, not to mention other applications like remodeling. I make my own hardwood picture frame moulding, could even make my own custom portfolio cases if I chose to do so. It's all integrated. Junk breeds junk; quality breeds quality.

 

[MattKing]

And for the other cynic lurking here - Hello, Matt

Cynic?
I am an optimist.
With absolutely no skills when it comes to power tools of any sort!

 

[Vaughn]

Cynic?
I am an optimist.
With absolutely no skills when it comes to power tools of any sort!

I just about slit my wrist with an electric drill with a spade bit on it. That takes talent!

We (university darkroom) ran an Ilford Cibachrome processor with RA4 chemicals. If a student wanted to print, they loaded it up with their chemicals. Good for five days, then I emptied and rinsed/cleaned the machine. If no one was going to finish off the chemicals, and I had some paper around, I might make a few prints before dumping the chemicals. It was not heavily used, but we did have an occasional color class.

Bryce, San Clemente, CA
7x7 (on 8x10 paper) RA4 print. Kodak film and paper

 

[DREW WILEY]

In my early years, I somehow botched a Ciba with the colors nearly inverted, so threw that print into the wastebasket. Then I made a proper print from the same slide. An older man expressed interest in a certain kind of imagery and I invited him over. As I was leafing through various prints, he looked down toward the wastebasket, and said, That is exactly what I was looking for! So I framed it and sold it to him, but was somewhat perplexed. Only later did I learn he was seriously color blind. So everything is relative.

 

[Wayne]

All of my customers are color blind.