Newbie staining developer question- please don't flame me

[Bruce Appel]

I have read all sorts of posts about the virtues of staining developers. I made one foray into trying pyrocat hd a year os so ago, could never get results I liked with the film I was using at the time. I was trying it on hp5+ roll film, and found that in subdued, dull light, if I developed enough to get the contrast needed to print well on middle speed paper (tried graded and vc), that subject in harsher light on the same roll would be blown out.
So, I decided that was just a bad combo for me, not worth pursuing. To be honest, those negatives that had the correct contrast/exposure, printed no better than the non staining developers I had been using.
So, go forward a year or so, I have now been trying out pmk on 4X5 fortepan 200. I have tested and gotten an ei/time/agitation regimen that gives me negatives that are straight forward to print, on middle grade paper.
I guess I am missing something, because I see nothing really any different in the print than I get with non staining developers ( I have been using PC-TEA, with much thanks Mr Gainer).
So here is my question, and please don't flame me, but just exactly what should I be seeing in my prints that differentiate stined form non stained negatives?
Maybe I am thick, but I am not getting it.

 

[fhovie]

Pyro is great - but that doesn't make other developers bad. In my experience - Pyro is great for LF and some MF - It is not good for lots of enlargement. It works very well with graded paper. - The pyro benifit list contains:

Increased sharpness by increasing edge effects (especially with semi stand methods)
Contrast compensation - its tanning action keeps highlights under control (unlike Metol)
more robust mid-tones - more so perhaps with Catechol and p-amiophenol as opposed to gallol (IMHO - other opinions will vary on this point)
Reduced film speed - By as much as a stop.
Greater densities and stain color helps in alt processing (the best for AZO and Kalitypes IMHO)

Do you need more?? - low cost.

If I didn't use pyro - (I use P'cat classic right now) I would likely use Mytol - the formula is here on this site somewhere. Mytol is fine grain - gives full film speed and crisp but not enhanced edge effects. Not as sharp or conpensating as pyro. PC-TEA is a great developer with characteristics like Mytol but with slightly coarser grain. This can make a LF neg look sharper. I use PC-TEA and 510 Pyro at times as well. -

In Hutchings book - the book of pyro - he lists films that are better and worse in pyro - pyro is not best for all films -
for sure - pyro does very well with FP4 - TRI-X APX100(RIP) and many here report great results with TMX & TMY (less stain I think) J&C100 EFKE Forte and others. I am sure that some films will never realize their full potential in pyro and if you use pyro - it is likely best to use a film that responds well.

But for me and LF - there is only pyro - the question is Classic or -P?

 

[PhotoJim]

PMK stock solution lasts for years. It's one of the longest-lived developers. That's another huge plus.

Some people feel that there is little practical difference. I disagree - the differences are subtle but noticeable. I use PMK for a lot of my film development (even 35mm).

 

[Dave Parker]

Consider yourself Flamed!!!!


Dead Link Removed



R.

 

[c6h6o3]

So here is my question, and please don't flame me, but just exactly what should I be seeing in my prints that differentiate stined form non stained negatives?

If you're enlarging onto gelatin silver paper the answer is 'Nothing'.

If you're contact printing onto something which demands a negative with much greater density range than most developers are capable of yielding, the stain will add density without blowing the highlights. Unless you're printing pt/pd, carbon or Azo I wouldn't worry about it.

In fact, a lot of my pyro negatives are unprintable onto enlarging paper. Staining developers could actually be a disadvantage for you.

 

[jim appleyard]

Someone here on APUG flame you? Never! For everything, there is a first time.

I've used mostly devs with pyrogallic acid, PMK and WD2D+. What I've noticed is some really great midtones and a finer and sharper grain. I guess the fine-grain effect comes from the masking of the grain by the stain and it "fills-in" the areas between the grains. The sharpness, I would assume, comes from the lack of sulfite in pyro devs; there's nothing to eat away at the grains.

It took me awhile to get used to a stained neg and not all films stain to the same degree. I haven't done HP-5+ in a staining dev, but it could be a good combo, just not one with a heavy stain.

Stay with it as I think staining devs provide a different look. Not necessarily better overall, but improved in some ways. Just MHO.

 

[Andy K]

'Newbie staining developer question- please don't flame me'

No need to worry about being flamed for asking questions on APUG. I have never seen anyone flamed on this forum for asking any film related question. This is not Pnet.

 

[df cardwell]

If you're enlarging onto gelatin silver paper the answer is 'Nothing'....

Concur. On gelatin paper, every staining 'effect' can be achieved with a non staining developer.

The magic is in HOW you use the materials,
not in the materials themselves.

.

 

[Bruce Appel]

The flame thing just came up because I have seen how passionate people get about this stuff. Just look at some of the recent stuff with King and Simmons for example. I didn't want to get a bunch of stuff stirred up.
Back in the 80's , after having been away from darkroom work for a number of years, I did a bunch of film/developer/technique testing, and once I found apx 100 in rodinol in my rollei, the testing quit.
Since then, times have changed, materials have changed, I have changed, So I do a lot of the same stuff over again....
The conclusion I am coming too, and I may be fos, is that once a film and developer combo is dialed in to print well, there is little practical difference in the finished print. Not talking alternate proccesses, or contact printng mind you, but standard silver gelatin printing.
I just am not seeing much advantage in MY work to the staining developers, and wonder what I am not seeing that I should be.

 

[PhotoJim]

The strength of staining developers is in highlight detail.

Shoot some film of very high-key subjects or with snow, light-coloured sand or cloud detail. Pyrogallol and pyrocatechin developers will help you to get better highlight separation.

For subjects that don't have a lot of important highlight detail, the advantages of these developers may be fairly minimal, other than the shelf life issue which I mentioned earlier which I believe is a huge advantage.

 

[jim appleyard]

Bruce, IMO, there a few differences, within certain families of devs. Take D-76, FG-7 and HC-110. Could you tell the difference in a print made from each one? I doubt I could, but I think there differences in devs from different families. I think I could tell a Rodinal print from D-23.

I do see a difference in staining devs. As I said before, my midtones seem to glow and all the tones in them come out. I've also seldom had a burned-out highlight.

Again, just MHO

 

[jim appleyard]

Bruce, IMO, there a few differences, within certain families of devs. Take D-76, FG-7 and HC-110. Could you tell the difference in a print made from each one? I doubt I could, but I think there differences in devs from different families. I think I could tell a Rodinal print from D-23.

I do see a difference in staining devs, usually small, but there. As I said before, my midtones seem to glow and all the tones in them come out. I've also seldom had a burned-out highlight. Magic bullet? No such thing. My philosophy is that families of devs do certain things well and certain things not so well.

Again, just MHO

 

[Kino]

For me, I reserve Pyro for sheet film; something I can develop one exposure at a time. Using confidential formulas passed on to me by a fellow APUGer who has adapted BTZS principals, it really does amazing things with semi-stand developing.

I know others use it routinely for roll film development, and I have processed one or two rolls of Arista EDU Ultra in PK HD, but it didn't seem to offer any advantage over HC110B that I could see, so I will pretty much stick to HC110 while shooting rollfilm.

I guess am not careful enough on long roll exposures to stay within a certain range of exposures within the entire roll for it to really shine. My fault entirely, I think...

Anyway, there is no substitute for experimentation and Pyrocat HD is very inexpensive to try -- go for it!

Frank W.