Newb Question: Xtol

[lilmsmaggie]

I realize that somewhere on this site there is probably an answer to my question. I just can't seem to find it. Anyway, I shoot a lot of B&W films; FP4+, Delta 100-400and Neopan Acros and recently acquired some Delta 3200 for night photography.

I'm not setup to do my own processing, don't have the space or funds to invest in setting up a darkroom and the only B&W soup (D-76) I've used was in a class. Anyway, I take my film to a professional lab to be processed that has standardized on Xtol in a Refrema automated dip & dunk processor.

This question may not make sense and I may not word it right so, please excuse the clumsiness: This is a first-rate lab that specializes in B&W, so I know they'll do a great job. Knowing what developer will be used, in this case Xtol, when exposing different B&W films, what exposure information should I take into consideration when communicating to the lab how to process the film?

I guess what I'm asking is how do I obtain the best results from this developer since I'm not the one actually processing the film?

Bottomline: I'm learning B&W film processing vicariously through a professional lab which isn't the best way to learn but its what I gotta work with.

 

[BetterSense]

When working with most labs, you basically are limited to "process normally", "push N stops" or "pull N stops". Until you get a roll back from that lab, you won't really know what their "process normally" looks like. If you get a roll back and it seems overdeveloped, then in the future you can tell them to "pull 1 stop" or something. Some labs charge extra for the special processing however.

 

[Chazzy]

Xtol gives good speed with fine grain, so you might be happy shooting at the box speed. I can't think of anything else about Xtol that need concern you. But it's very easy to process your own black and white film, and it doesn't take a big investment in equipment. You ought to give it a try.

 

[MattKing]

It is a good question, but I'd suggest that you first ask the lab for their suggestions.

Tell them about the films you shoot, the conditions you like to shoot in, and the "look" you like in your prints. See what they say.

Also, talk to them about sending them a test roll or two - something like shots taken at your meter's "recommended" exposure plus the same shots at 1/2 stop, 1 stop, 1 1/2 stops and 2 stops either way. See how the negatives come out and ask their advice.

Most likely they will appreciate your initiating the discussion.

 

[lilmsmaggie]

When working with most labs, you basically are limited to "process normally", "push N stops" or "pull N stops". Until you get a roll back from that lab, you won't really know what their "process normally" looks like. If you get a roll back and it seems overdeveloped, then in the future you can tell them to "pull 1 stop" or something. Some labs charge extra for the special processing however.

Drat! I was afraid someone would say that

Xtol gives good speed with fine grain, so you might be happy shooting at the box speed. I can't think of anything else about Xtol that need concern you. But it's very easy to process your own black and white film, and it doesn't take a big investment in equipment. You ought to give it a try.

Hi Chazzy! Yes, I know -- but I'm space challenged and I have a cat

It is a good question, but I'd suggest that you first ask the lab for their suggestions.

Tell them about the films you shoot, the conditions you like to shoot in, and the "look" you like in your prints. See what they say.

Also, talk to them about sending them a test roll or two - something like shots taken at your meter's "recommended" exposure plus the same shots at 1/2 stop, 1 stop, 1 1/2 stops and 2 stops either way. See how the negatives come out and ask their advice.

Most likely they will appreciate your initiating the discussion.

Good suggestion Matt - I have a good rapport with them -- I like it. I think I'll try it!

 

[pentaxuser]

Hi Chazzy! Yes, I know -- but I'm space challenged and I have a cat

/QUOTE]

Is it a hungry and intelligent cat? If so buy a tank and reel and tell the cat that a mouse lives inside the tank. In trying to get the top off the tank it will roll it around for a lot longer than the dev times recommend. Just remember to deduct the time for constant rotation and remove it from the cat's paws at the calculated time.

Don't forget to give the cat a reward for its efforts. An intelligent one will soon realise it's a con and attack your jugular at two o'clock in the morning when you are asleep.

On the other hand the same intelligent cat will go along with the "con" as long as there is a reward. Cats are all capitalists at heart. Only dogs do things to please you.

There were no cats storming the Winter Palace in 1917 but Lenin relied on his dogs one of whom was called Joe and became famous. The other called Leon helped as well but was too individualistic and had to emigrate to Mexico City but it did no good.

pentaxuser

 

[Chazzy]

I have two cats and a small apartment, and I have no trouble developing film. If you have somewhere to plop down a changing bag, you can develop film.

 

[tkamiya]

I'm guessing you are talking about 135 format film. If this is the case, unless you were very careful and purposeful in setting up certain exposures that were consistent for every frame in a roll, there isn't much to tell the lab. If you consistently under exposed each frame by over-rating the ISO setting (PUSHing), then the lab will need to know that - or if you PULLed it, lab will need to know that, too. If you made a mistake and shot the film at incorrect ISO setting on your camera, then that will need to be communicated.

Otherwise, the lab will just process it per its standard.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

You really should process your own negatives and then let the lab make the prints. Only you can give them the loving care that they deserve. All you need is a Nikor SS tank or silimar light tight tank and reel and a room that can be made made totally dark for a few minutes or a changing bag. Add some developer and fixer and you are in business. It's very simple to do.

 

[Mark Fisher]

Xtol usually gives close to box speed and is quite nice. The advice given to shoot a test roll is definitely a good one. You can get good negatives using a pro lab so don't feel you need to do it yourself, but.......I've developed film in a hotel bathroom....I'm sure you can do it in your space. For the price of developing a handful of rolls, you could get some used equipment to develop film (reels, tank, thermometer, storage containers) and print contact sheets (1/4 inch-ish glass, a screw in safelight and trays). You also need some way to darken the space (e.g. black foam core over windows at night, black out fabric, etc). I personally hate using changing bags, but lots of people use those too.
If you decide to develop your own, try to at least do contact sheets. The images coming up in the developer is too amazing to miss...

 

[Harry Lime]

It's actually a lot cheaper to process your b/w film at home then taking it to a lab. You can buy a tank, a changing bag and the necessary chemicals for the cost of developing a handful of rolls at the lab. You do not need a darkroom to process your film. Just a changing bag.

 

[removed account4]

it is good advice to bring a few rolls as test rolls to see how they look.
from my experience using xtol, (and one of the reasons i don't use it),
is that without over developing by at least 30% the films i shot
looked thin, with no contrast.

i hate to suggest this, but you can buy a multi or single reel tank
and a reel or a few reels for maybe 20$ used,
and mix your own developer ( sprint is liquid that is mixed 1:9 and their fix for film is 2:8
and it is very similar to d76 ) ... it isn't very expensive either and easy to use.
you will probably get better results than the lab, and you will have a better understanding
about processing film. i hated taking film to a lab. whether they ever admitted it or not, they
always batched films to be processed and never really processed lets say tri x for 7.5 mins like
one would hope, but instead processed it for an average time for whatever else they were processing with it.

maybe this was more of a " when film was king" kind of thing that labs did, and maybe not all labs did or do this
( i knew people who worked in labs and they used to give me the low-down ) ...

anyways a few reels and a tank and some chemistry is all that is needed, ...

you can even get rotary processors for not much money these days ...

YMMV

good luck!
john

 

[tkamiya]

from my experience using xtol, (and one of the reasons i don't use it), is that without over developing by at least 30% the films i shot
looked thin, with no contrast.

YMMV

That's really YMMV.... My initial results were TOO MUCH contrast and really dense negatives. I struggled with it for quite a while.

 

[JLP]

John, I find that very strange. Overdeveloping by 30%, is that 30% more than Kodaks data sheet?
I can print Pt/Pd prints from negatives developed in Xtol with normal negatives and little contrast agent (Na2) I have had lot's of problems with other developers getting negatives that will print on normal silver based papers and also be printable for alternative processes such as Pt/Pd.

 

[removed account4]

yeah ...

i used it for about 2 years ... hundreds of sheets of film ( hangers in tanks )
and 35mm ( probably 75-100 rolls ) in reels and hand tanks.
all my film was always over exposed at least 1 stop .. and over developed it by and extra 30%
from what kodak published as the developing times ..
maybe they have changed the developer ? maybe they have retooled their developing times ?
they have stopped suggesting people dilute it beyond 1:3 ... so who knows ( this was in the 1990s ... )

the only cool think about xtol is when you mix part a and part b, it magically changes color ...
and it doesn't smell too bad ...

otherwise ... i can't stand that stuff ...

i WILL use vitamin C developers ...
i always add Vit C into my caffenol

 

[tkamiya]

John,

Maybe your darkroom was traveling at or near speed of light, so according to Einstein's time dilation theory, your clock was running 30% slower than ones at Kodak. Either that or your agitated your film at or near speed of light.... Either that... or maybe photons were running low on gas so they were slower to hit your emulsion....

I found my happy place at 15% LESS time than Kodak's spec sheet. That seems to work for me well.

 

[JLP]

I don't know Kodaks recomended Dev times, prefer to find my own but i like Xtol in a Jobo. I spent 5 years trying to get Pyrocat MC to work and now getting back to Xtol i find that i lost 5 years of good print making.

 

[removed account4]

its funny, i have given people my processing regime
for ansco 130 .. dilutions and times for most films ..
people do it and say - holy mackerel ! my film ended up so contrasty
i couldn't even make salt prints with it lol

maybe its all the madjool dates i eat,
they increase electromagnetism

my happy place was 30% +
although my film wasn't as crisp
and didn't have the "snap" i was used to
from dk50, or sprint, or tmax rs, or ...

i'm glad you all love xtol,
you won't find me anywhere near your stash !




john

 

[tkamiya]

Maybe you are in temporal time flux.... When was the last time you charged your flux capacitor?

 

[MattKing]

John:

You weren't sneaking some coffee in there with your Xtol, were you?

For good luck?

 

[removed account4]

John:

You weren't sneaking some coffee in there with your Xtol, were you?

For good luck?

matt -

if i had, i would have stayed with the xtol
ONLY because i would have slowly increased the coffee
and decreased the xtol until it was like 99.5% coffee and .5% xtol


tkamia, i think you figured me out, i am
really in the 7th dimension

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I'm sure that that most people are perplexed as to how people can get such diametrically opposed results from Xtol. If you are consistently getting thin or dense negatives then you should check a few things.

o Are you doing anything different now that you are using a different developer?
o Is your shutter accurate?
o Is your light meter accurate?
o Are you following the suggestions of the film's manufacturer?
o Are you following the developer manufacture's recommendations?
o Is your thermometer accurate?
o Is your timer accurate?
o Don't base your conclusion on just looking at the negatives. Film density and contrast are very hard to determine from just looking at negatives. For example, most people cannot tell the difference between an overexposed negative and an overdeveloped one.