New improved Classic Pan films

[matt.s.]

Has anybody yet had an opportunity to test the improved versions of the Classic Pan 200 and 400 Speed films. I am particularly interested in the way they perform in pyrocat-hd in terms of speed & contrast. I have been happy with Fortepan 200 which I believe is similar to the old Classic pan 200 but it is a little slow (ei:100) I found the Fortepan 400 too flat and grainy
(even in 8x10") but I am led to believe that the new version is a significant improvement. I would greatly appreciate any feedback in regards to this.

 

[Francesco]

I have used both Fortepan 200 and 400 in Pyrocat HD and I do agree with your assessment of them. I have recently started using the new Classic 400 and so far I find the film to be superior at building contrast and density than Fortepan 400. It appears I can now get the film to work with G2 AZO, unlike before.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've used both old and new Classic 400, and the new version is *much* improved. I'm processing it mainly in ABC pyro, but I've gotten good results as well in Acufine and PMK. With the old version it was difficult to get enough density for Azo without intensifying the negative. The new version has density to spare. You can check my gallery here for a few sample shots with technical info.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I haven't used the EDU 400, but I know the first coating of the new Classic 400 film dates from last November. I'm not sure how long it took to make its way into stock. When did you buy the EDU 400?

 

[bmac]

Freestyle sells the EDU. Isn't the Arista.edu same as J&C 400?

I haven't used the EDU 400, but I know the first coating of the new Classic 400 film dates from last November. I'm not sure how long it took to make its way into stock. When did you buy the EDU 400?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I believe Arista.EDU 400 is the same as Classic 400, and if that's the case, then jdef's film would be the same as New Classic 400. Freestyle says it's made in Hungary (which would be the Forte plant), and J&C has reported that all the film there is being cut from the same master rolls--J&C Classic, ClassicPan, FortePan, and I suppose Arista.EDU.

 

[jandc]

I believe Arista.EDU 400 is the same as Classic 400, and if that's the case, then jdef's film would be the same as New Classic 400. Freestyle says it's made in Hungary (which would be the Forte plant), and J&C has reported that all the film there is being cut from the same master rolls--J&C Classic, ClassicPan, FortePan, and I suppose Arista.EDU.

Forte is no longer producing the old emulsion 400 film. All current orders are being filled from the new production 400. I don't know if the edu film is from the new or old stock. I do know that Forte is selling HP5 under their brand in 400 speed roll film. I have been told the edu 400 roll film is HP5 and not the new Forte 400. We have specified that we only want the Forte 400 films in both roll and sheet and that is what we are getting from them.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[jandc]

The Edu. 400 rollfilm I'm using is definitely not HP5, but the Arista Professional 400 rollfilm very well could be, and I treat it as such. Why would Forte sell HP5 instead of their own 400 speed film?

As I said I was told the edu 400 roll film is HP5, not sure if that means 120, 35mm or both. I have not taken the time to look into this so you may be right.

Because they can buy the HP5 being dumped on the market at prices that are cheaper than they can make the film themselves. So they make more profit on each roll.

The Forte branded films are being converted to HP5.

Freestyles developing chart shows identical times for edu and forte 100 and 200 but not 400. I don't know what this means but I found it interesting.

 

[matt.s.]

"Also, I've never made a contact print in which grain was apparent, with any film/developer combination, and I see no grain in 8x10 enlargements made from 6x7 Edu."

I often enlarge my 8x10" negs and in a 24x30" enlargement from the old fortepan 400 the grain was excessive for a print from an 8x10 neg. Admittedly it was processed in Rodinal 1:50 and not pyrocat-hd (my preferred developer). The extremely long tray development time was also a major frustration. I have been very happy with fortepan 200 at ei:100 in pyrocat hd but it is too slow for available light portraiture.

It sounds like the new Classic 400 might be worth a try instead of Tri-x which is a bit too pricey to ship in from the U.S.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Since starting 8x10 about 10 months ago, I have used J&C Classic Pan exclusively; both versions of the 200, and recently, the new 400. Here's what I have observed:

First of all, I don't own a desitometer, so I can't rattle off of a bunch density, fb+fog values, or CI numbers. All I can do is report the results of the prints.

The new 200 can build a lot of density when developed in ABC Pyro. I found I as overexposing it by as much as 4 stops; dense as hell, eminently printable on Azo grade 2. Some have said from their densitomer readings that the 200 doesn't aloow for much expansion and contraction. My experience is counter to that when developed in ABC. If I were to continue developing it with ABC, I would rate it at 200 instead of 100 like I had been doing.

When developing with Pyrocat HD, the new 200 can be rated at 200, developed for 14 minutes and have a beautiful negative for Azo grade 2.

The 400 is wonderful. Sandy King, through his rigorous test, believes it has plenty of potential for expansion and contraction. I agree albeit with limited experience. The 400 speed is great, allowing for wind pertebations and using contrast filters. About 14 minutes in Pyrocat HD and it (again) does great on Azo grade 2.

Notice, with pyrocat HD, N development time is about 14 minutes for 200 and 400. Nice! Several others have noted the same thing.

The final sealer of the deal is the price and J&C's service. I've always loved Tri-X but Kodak's pricing on their 8x10 sheets is outlandish. J&C ships very promptly; I usually recieve my order with 3 days, sometimes in 2 days.

I have not seen a reason to use any other films yet. My current plans are to continue developing with Pyrocat, wringing out all I can from both the 400 and 200.

 

[jandc]

What do you mean by, "The Forte branded films are being converted to HP5."?

400 speed roll films (35, 120 or both) with the Forte brand name on the box are being made using HP5.

 

[bmac]

If they can buy HP5 cheaper than they can make thier own 400 speed film, I wonder why they continue to produce their own 400 speed film? So if I buy Forte pan 400, it could be either Forte Pan 400 or HP5, unless I buy J&C Classic 400, which is Forte Pan 400, and Arista's Edu. 400 could be old Forte Pan 400, or new Forte Pan 400, but Arista's 400 professional is HP5?

That makes it all clear now..

 

[jandc]

If they can buy HP5 cheaper than they can make thier own 400 speed film, I wonder why they continue to produce their own 400 speed film? So if I buy Forte pan 400, it could be either Forte Pan 400 or HP5, unless I buy J&C Classic 400, which is Forte Pan 400, and Arista's Edu. 400 could be old Forte Pan 400, or new Forte Pan 400, but Arista's 400 professional is HP5?

Yes, it's very confusing. Eventually all of this is going to work itself out. Who's going to be left standing and what films will be available is another story.

I personally don't believe that HP5 being put on the secondary market so cheaply but still marketed in the original box as a premium film is going to work in the long term.

It's like the ORWO 35mm film we sell which is FP4+ in an Orwo box factory rolled in the same DX cartriges as the original film which sells for $1.39 a roll. Everyone made money along the way and we're still at $1.39 a roll. What's a box of Ilford branded FP4+ 35mm go for?

 

[mark]

Alex,
What teps are you developing the classic 200 at in Pyrocat. If i go 14 minutes the neg is too flat. My standard development is 17min 30sec at 70ish degrees(ish means give or take 1 degree) rated at 200.

Are you rating 400 at 400?

 

[mobtown_4x5]

j and c rocks, I can't wait to make my way through the rest of my Tri-x so I can get smart and try some "slavic" film!

 

[Alex Hawley]

Alex,
What teps are you developing the classic 200 at in Pyrocat. If i go 14 minutes the neg is too flat. My standard development is 17min 30sec at 70ish degrees(ish means give or take 1 degree) rated at 200.

My room runs the same 70ish temperature. I develop sheet film by inspection so I don't pay strict attention to the time. Neither do I make any temperature adjustments away from room temperature.

Are you rating 400 at 400?

Yes. According to all the accounts I've read posted by those who do the rigorous desitometer testing, Pyrocat allows rating at the advertised box speed. THis is one reason the change in the 200 characteristics snuck up on me. Concensus and my own testing said the old 200 Classic Pan worked best at 100 when developed in ABC. It took me a few shots to realize I was getting too much density with the new emulsion. The negs were still printable but still overy dense, requireing a water bath sometimes with grade 2 Azo. If I use ABC on the new 200 emulsion now, I will meter it at 200.

I haven't developed any of the new 400 with ABC 1:1:1:7. However, it just may be that it could be metered at rated speed too and still produce enough density for Azo.

 

[matt.s.]

So what speed have people been able to get out of the 400 Classic film. A real 400 ISO? If I could even get EI: 320 out of it in Pyrocat-HD I would be very happy.

I am also curious to know if the new 400 emulsion has the same increased tungsten sensitivity as it's predecessor which allowed an exposure index up to a stop higher than the daylight speed.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

For Azo, I'm getting good results with new CP400 sheet film using the same times I do in ABC 1+1+1+7 for TXT--12' at 68 deg. F with tray development for normal contrast, EI 160. I haven't tested that with a densitometer, but I'm getting good contrast and good shadow detail on grade 2 Azo. It might be possible to rate it slightly higher, but it seems to be a long toe film like TXT, so a little extra exposure pushes the shadows up the curve for better separation down there, and there's enough room at the top of the curve to do it without shouldering.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Take a look at my latest two posts in the Standard Gallery, "Across the Road" and "Across the Road #2". This was shot on CP 400, at 400 speed, developed 14 minutes in Pyrocat HD 2:2:100, 70ish degrees. One is printed on grade 2, one on grade 3. I'm having a hard time picking which one is best.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Take a look at my latest two posts in the Standard Gallery, "Across the Road" and "Across the Road #2". This was shot on CP 400, at 400 speed, developed 14 minutes in Pyrocat HD 2:2:100, 70ish degrees. One is printed on grade 2, one on grade 3. I'm having a hard time picking which one is best.

Alex,
I just posted a side by side version of your two images in the Technical Gallery. I like the grade 3 image a bit better, primarily because I like the image tone better than the grade 2 version.

 

[zonesys]

Forte is no longer producing the old emulsion 400 film. All current orders are being filled from the new production 400. I don't know if the edu film is from the new or old stock. I do know that Forte is selling HP5 under their brand in 400 speed roll film. I have been told the edu 400 roll film is HP5 and not the new Forte 400. We have specified that we only want the Forte 400 films in both roll and sheet and that is what we are getting from them.

Hello,

Does anyone has developing time for Forte 200 in Pyrocat-HD ?
zonesys

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

PM Sandy King. If anyone has the data on Forte 200 it is most likely Sandy.

 

[jandc]

PM Sandy King. If anyone has the data on Forte 200 it is most likely Sandy.

It's the same as our Classic 200. Times are available on our web site as well as many posts on APUG and the AZO forum.

 

[Larry1948]

to enlighten us newbies and re-educate those who may have forgotten,"why is hp-5 treat as a parriah?"
Larry B.