New BW Paper From Agfa-Gevaert

Henning Serger · Mar 12, 2008

Dear apug members,

here are some very exciting news:

http://www.aphog.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4108

This is a statement from the director of Maco Photo Products in Germany concerning a new BW paper from Agfa-Gevaert. I want to translate the essential facts for you:

- Agfa-Gevaert is introducing a RC BW paper called "Rapidoprint" this summer
- Rapidoprint is identical to the well known Agfa MCP
- available by your retailers, no exclusivity
- fresh production (Rapidoprint=MCP was used for years by industrial customers, therefore the name Rapidoprint is only new for the consumer market)
- prices probably similar to Ilford

I think these are interesting news for us Black&White enthusiasts. Long live film, long live the darkroom .

Best regards,
Henning

Ian Grant · Mar 12, 2008

Rapidoprint was a Rapid Access resin coated paper, it was originally designed for the activator stabiliser process and needed no developer, as the paper was developer incorporated. The last time I used this paper was about 1973/74 it gave very good prints developing in seconds in any developer, I have no idea how similar it is now

Presumably this is made by Agfa-Gevaert to compliment their aerial photography films.

Ian

Paul Howell · Mar 12, 2008

I hope it makes to the US market, great for proofs.

rtuttle · Mar 12, 2008

Rapidoprint was also a graphic arts product that I believe was stabilizer based. Was very expensive and wasn't exactly a contract grade proof so it didn't stick around long. I could have gotten my hands on some 10+ years ago but passed as it was extremely temperature sensitive as I remember. Great news about the paper though regardless of the name.

Ian Grant · Mar 12, 2008

Like many of the other MACO/Rollei offerings it'll be a niche product, and not really a competitor for papers from Foma, Adox(Fotoimpex), EFKE and Ilford/Kentmere/Bergger.

Ian

Henning Serger · Mar 12, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Rapidoprint was a Rapid Access resin coated paper, it was originally designed for the activator stabiliser process and needed no developer, as the paper was developer incorporated. The last time I used this paper was about 1973/74 it gave very good prints developing in seconds in any developer, I have no idea how similar it is now

Ian

Dear Ian,

Rapidoprint was changed over all the years. In the beginning of the nineteens, when the MCP emulsion was introduced, this MCP emulsion was used also for Rapidoprint.
The Rapidoprint we will see this summer is the MCP emulsion.

Best regards,
Henning

Ian Grant · Mar 12, 2008

Ok, fair point Henning. I don't mean to rubbish the product, I made excellent prints with the paper I used in the arly 70's and that was old stock.

Unfortunately it's an RC paper, and I just don't use them.

Ian

Henning Serger · Mar 12, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Like many of the other MACO/Rollei offerings it'll be a niche product, and not really a competitor for papers from Foma, Adox(Fotoimpex), EFKE and Ilford/Kentmere/Bergger.

Ian

Dear Ian,

this paper is not an exclusive Maco offering. Agfa-Gevaert will offer it to everyone who wants to buy.
It will be produced in very high volumes.

Best regards,
Henning

Michael W · Mar 12, 2008

Here's another bit of photo industry news that has me scratching my head as to who is making what products.
Last week I bought a pack of Adox MCP from Freestyle, which I guess is the stuff that Mirko from Fotoimpex has been posting about on this forum. Made by Fotoimpex using the old Agfa Photo equipment.
But now the Agfa Gevaert statement claims that their new paper is also identical to MCP, so it looks like we will have two competing MCP emulsions on the market.
What I would like to know - Is this a separate product from A-G, or is it the same product being distributed by different parties?

AgX · Mar 12, 2008

Goldie,

Yes, this is confusing. But bear in mind that from the legal perspective the product brand-name question seems still open and even more the formula question.

There is one company trying to get as close as possible to a once existing product of another company.
And there is Agfa themselves re-introducing their former emulsion. I say re-introducing as I doubt that lately in their current plant paper had been coated at all.

Rolleiflexible · Mar 12, 2008

Call me crazy but isn't this a terrible development?
Isn't this going to undermine Adox's efforts to
restore Agfa papers to market? I don't care much
about MCP one way or another. But if this puts
Adox in the hole and makes it uneconomic for
Adox to bring MCC 111 back to market, that will
be a disaster for us all. RXFB

GeorgK · Mar 13, 2008

Hello.
There has been a legal dispute on the brand "Agfaphoto" recently, but in the meantime the situation is quite clear. The brand "Agfa" and the red rhombus belong to Agfa-Gevaert (the "belgian Agfa", located in Mortsel), while "Agfaphoto" combined with a red dot is exclusive to "Lupus Imaging" for products like films, papers, memory cards, batteries, USB sticks, and cameras. "Lupus Imaging" is a pure trading company, with no own production. All "real" Afga stuff in the Lupus portfolio is leftover stock from 2005/2006.

And yes, we will have two competing "MCP-Clones" from two different manufacturers; The "Agfa Rapidoprint", made in Belgium by Agfa-Gevaert, and the "ADOX MCP", coated by "Inoviscoat" (former Agfa-Leverkusen facilities). Both are produced on modern, high tech equipment, and both were designed by people, who were also involved in the production of the original Agfa MCP. So I would suspect them to be very close in specification. Somehow strange, but great for us customers.

I am surprised that Adox MCP is already available in the US. Maybe this is a "test marketing", because in Europe the release of Adox MCP has been delayed until most of the (discount-priced) old stocks are used up.

Regards
Georg

AgX · Mar 13, 2008

GeorgK said:
Hello.
There has been a legal dispute on the brand "Agfaphoto" recently, but in the meantime the situation is quite clear.

I am not sure about that. When Agfa sold part of their production facilities to an investors group they gave with it the right to use the brand-name AgfaPhoto to give the new company a good start, as they call it. And seemingly they added the rights for product names and formulas, as otherwise the new company could not have worked.

When the manufacturing part of the new company collapsed, Agfa requested the brand-name back from the investors holding as they thought to have given it only for the (production) time being. However the contract must have been that loose that they lost a legal case on it.
In all official publication about a legal settlement they only refer to that single brand-name, not to the other issues.

JLP · Mar 13, 2008

Well, if this is an attempt to derail the Adox initiative which i applaud, i can only say that my money is not going to anybody but Adox and the Adox MCC111.

jan

walter ivenz · Mar 13, 2008

Hello to all,
the rectly announced ADOX MCP 310 Paper, which is offered now in the US was produced in 2005 in Leverkusen/Germany!
App. 14.000 sqm on masterrolls where sold to Fotoimpex and packaged in Wolfen/Germany.
Be shure: The paper now offered is NOT a newley produced paper, its an OLD Product, only NOW packaged.
Kind regards
Walter

GeorgK · Mar 13, 2008

Walter,
thank you for this information. If this is really true, then it's quite a strange marketing strategy for the new "Adox" papers, if they start their new MCP line with rebadged "old" stock. Is this really sold under the same "MCP" label as the new paper?

Regards
Georg

Ulrich Drolshagen · Mar 13, 2008

Mirko has ever said that selling of newly manufactured MCP will start when his old stock is sold. This is no new information.

Ulrich

pentaxuser · Mar 13, 2008

"Confused? You soon will be!" was a statement that used to introduce a US situation comedy of the 1980s that we got on UK tv. Well it seems to sum up the situation as far as I am concerned.

I am clear, I think, that Fotoimpex has devoted time and resources to replicate a much smaller coating facility to replicate Agfa MCP and MCC and that it has decided, quite sensibly, not to launch until it has exhausted stocks of the former MCP and MCC. So far so good.

So, has Agfa now decided to re-launch its own coating facility to compete with Fotoimpex? I had thought that its facilities in Leverkusen had been dismantled and or scrapped and that any resurrection of this facility was impossible.

OR is there so much MCP and MCC left that Agfa has decided that the demand means that it can sell both MCP and MCC again for revenue and profit but can't or won't produce any new paper?

So is there one smaller facility only(Fotoimpex) which in the future will produce MCP and MCC replicas or is there now two players in the game both of whom will produce paper for the future. One type will be actual MCP and MCC exactly as before and called Agfa and another will be MCP and MCC "look alikes" from Fotoimpex?

pentaxuser

GeorgK · Mar 13, 2008

I would suggest people should do at least a little bit of research on the internet before they start posting their "thoughts" and thereby just add to the confusion.

Agfa-Gevaert in Mortsel/Belgium, who NEVER ceased production anyway, was only active in the industrial/professional market for film and paper (X-ray, material testing, aerial and traffic surveillance etc.) over the last years, but now will also offer a b/w paper for the consumer market. This is the only news. This paper is said to be very similiar to the old Agfa MCP. Additionally, this paper seems to be in production since several months (Agfa "Rapitone M2"), but up to now was only available for professional/industrial use. There is no information available on a FB variant (a.k.a. MCC), and because this would be a completely new product for Agfa-Gevaert, it is rather unlikely at the moment.

Fotoimpex has a small coating facility for research an testing, but will contract a Leverkusen based start-up company with a big coating line ("Inoviscoat", more or less former Agfa Leverkusen hardware) for actual production. They will offer both PE and FB variants. Inoviscoat specializes in coating of all sorts of products (not only photo stuff), it is founded by former Agfa engineers, but has no connection with Agfa.

The move of Agfa-Gevaert was somehow surprising, but there is definitively no need to be confused.

Regards
Georg

AgX · Mar 13, 2008

Pentaxuser,

Agfa had given away their coating facilities at Leverkusen. Which means, in case I am right that they have not got any longer a paper-coating facility in Mortsel, that they will coat on their film coating line...

GeorgK,

Since when has Inoviscoat got a big coating machine next to their ex-Agfa experimental one?

GeorgK · Mar 13, 2008

To my knowledge, the "small" coating line ist owned by fotoimpex/Adox and only used for research and small test runs (it was used for the same purpose originally by Agfa Leverkusen). INOVISCOAT which is a independent start-up company (no connections with Adox or Agfa) is sub-contracted for production. Their coating line must be rather big, because they moved into a 80m (long) x 20m (wide) x 10m (high) building last year, simply because they needed the space.
Here is the article from a local newspaper:
http://www.leverkusener-anzeiger.ksta.de/html/artikel/1181199508309.shtml

Regards
Georg

pentaxuser · Mar 13, 2008

Thanks to both of you. Based on what you say I think the situation is as follows: Fotoimpex has a small coating facility to test MCC and MCP but will use the Leverkusen start-up company for production, called "Inoviscoat" and will offer both MCC and MCP. I had the impression that Fotoimpex was going to use the small coating facility to produce all its MCC and MCP paper as it didn't believe it could sell enough to make use of large coating lines. This being the reason that Agfa Leverkusen went out of business in the first place. That is to say, Agfa couldn't sell enough to make large scale production sensible. Certainly as far as I am aware Mirko never made any reference to using Inoviscoat. Maybe Fotoimpex now believes that the demand for MCC and MCP will justify large scale production.

Agfa Gevaert in Belgium will offer paper very similar to the old MCP but not offer any fibre paper such as MCC and has been producing it for several months as Agfa Rapidtone M2. Presumably it is offering Agfa M2 in mainland Europe only( which countries?)as I have seen no signs of any such paper for sale in the U.K.

So we have gone from a situation in which Fotoimpex was going to produce MCP in a small scale coating facility to one in which it is going to produce it in much larger quantities using Inoviscoat and compete with Agfa Gevaert who are going to produce it also.

Good luck to both producers but it just seems strange that demand for Agfa paper both RC and FB should fail to sustain Leverkusen and now the belief is that it can sustain Inoviscoat with large scale facilties and Agfa Gevaert.

Either Agfa Leverkusen got their figures wrong or demand for Agfa type paper has risen a lot in 3 years or Fotoimpex and Agfa Gevaert have over estimated demand and one or both will have invested in a product that cannot be made profitable. OR and just maybe, the Inoviscoat facility is a medium size facility which will be sustained by demand whereas the very large Agfa facility couldn't be sustained. A similar example might be Ilford which went "bust" and re-emerged as Harman and is now profitable.

In MCC it appears that Fotoimpex has the market to itself and provided demand can sustain the large scale facilities of Inoviscoat it should be OK

pentaxuser

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Mar 13, 2008

I'm still waiting on a post from Mirko for an official statement. For now I'm confused. If only it meant that APX 100 would come back tomorrow, I would be less precious with my Rollei 100...

Michael W · Mar 14, 2008

pentaxuser said:
Good luck to both producers but it just seems strange that demand for Agfa paper both RC and FB should fail to sustain Leverkusen and now the belief is that it can sustain Inoviscoat with large scale facilties and Agfa Gevaert.
pentaxuser

From what I've heard the Agfa Photo company was some kind of basket case & thus went into liquidation. It's possible that sales of B&W paper were OK but more fundamental problems brought the company undone.

AgX · Mar 14, 2008

Goldie,

The whole AgfaPhoto episode is weird to say at least. And I guess we'll have to wait for years to get to know the true story...

Further we have to wait whether that new Agfa paper (keep in mind that Agfa themselves did not announce anything yet!) will mean that they will come back directly to the non-`industry´ market.

GeorgK,

Many thanks for that newspaper article! It draws a picture of that company opposite to that I got by my informations so far.

But this all shows that we don't know nothing yet, but are rather speculating.
Let's lean back and wait what the industry has to offer...

New BW Paper From Agfa-Gevaert

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