Need your help with this technical problem

[Patrick Latour]

Hello all,
I need your help to find what I am doing wrong, or if there is a problem with my camera or film processing.

Here are a sample from contact sheets of my last 3 rolls. I used a Canon A2 since a long time and process my films since a couple of years and never saw that kind of thing.

On the image sample1.jpg nothing appears (except the lack of talent of the photographer )

On sample 2 and, they are my last 2 rolls, we see some dark lines coming from the holes in the film borders.

Ok, I do not need comments on the photographs or the model itself, I want to know your idea of the problem.

1-) Curtain problem. It was my first idea, but it seems to work well.

2-) Processing problem. When I put it on the reel I did something wrong.

3-) Film problem. I do not think. Sample1 is on fomapan 100, sample2 on delta 100 and sample3 on delta 400.

Any other idea ?

Thanks in advance for your help

 

[markbarendt]

Processing.

I had the same problem when I tried plastic reels for the first time, switched back to stainless, problem gone.

 

[vedmak]

it looks to me that you have light leeks on the film cassette, on your sample 2 are those a few pics come from the start of the roll? If yes, I would suspect your cassette is not light tight.

 

[Patrick Latour]

it looks to me that you have light leeks on the film cassette, on your sample 2 are those a few pics come from the start of the roll? If yes, I would suspect your cassette is not light tight.

I have it at the start, as well as at the end of the film. I did not roll it myself, they were bought brand new. It would be a real bad luck to have 2 different films (delta 100 and 400) with the same problem from the company. I think.

 

[ntenny]

Looks like surge marks from the sprocket holes. Generally this is an agitation issue of some sort---e.g., vigorous agitation can cause a "surge" of developer through the sprocket holes, resulting in more development locally. A highly active developer probably makes this problem more likely.

One solution is to shoot medium format instead---no holes.

-NT

 

[bdial]

This is from developer surging through the sprocket holes during agitation.
If you aren't already filling the tank, adding more may help (fill the tank). Also changes in your agitation technique, so that it is less vigorous. If you're using a two reel tank with only one reel, add a second, empty reel, especially if you're using a stainless tank.

 

[Ian Grant]

They can't possibly be light leaks the densities the wrong way around.

It's poor agitation, maybe coupled with the reel moving on the column in the dev tank, I've never seen it that bad before. Just an outside chance you have some contamination on the reel, so wash them well with hot water.

Look at Jason Brunner's excellent developing videos to see how agitation should be done.

Ian

 

[snallan]

To my eye, the dark streaks on the contact sheets suggest bromide drag from the sprocket area of the film causing underdevelopment. This would be caused by agitation technique as well.

Are you rolling the processing drum to agitate, or using a swizzle stick to rotate the reel in the drum? If so, you need to add some inversions to break up flow patterns that can develop if the agitation isn't 'randomized' in some way.

 

[smieglitz]

There is something wrong with the first sample although it is subtle. The edge of the film image is lighter with a broad periodicity to it. That indicates some sort of light leak or some broad pressure difference. It also appears slightly more pronounced at the upper edge. Compare the area around the sprocket holes between the adjacent strips in your first picture. The top edge of the lower strip has more fog than the bottom edge of the upper strip.

As far as the other problem (stripes), I would usually agree that it is an agitation problem at first glance. However, it would be the worst case of it I've ever seen. I think there is another contributing cause because it is so strong and sharp and regular. Usually the agitation surge ends up looking kind of broadly diffused away from the holes. Your examples are much too defined. They also appear to abruptly truncate midway up the film. That usually indicates a solution volume error.

Notice that the marks only appear on the bottom edge of the last image (at least as far as I can see on the small images you've included) and it also seems that way on the strip above though it is harder to see. If it was regular development surge, I'd expect to see equally defined stripes at both top and bottom edges Yours seem to be present only (or mainly) on one edge. That sort of irregularity happens when only part of the film is submerged during the development process. All of the film area develops to some degree, but only part gets full development. Since the fully developed area shows up lighter on the positive image, I'd say the strips were inverted in the tank from how they appear posted. Perhaps the dark stripes are areas where developer was not draining through the holes (i.e., blocked by the film between sprocket holes) and the light areas at the holes and midway up the film got more development. It is hard to tell because your posted images are so small. Can you post a large detail of one frame including the sprocket holes and edge? That might help diagnose the problem.

Were the films developed together in the same tank at the same time? Also, if more than one roll was developed at the same time, are you positive the solution volume was sufficient to cover both rolls? For example, if it takes 300ml per roll are you sure 600ml was used for 2 rolls? Or, is it possible one reel was developed in a two-reel tank using only the volume needed for one reel and the loaded reel somehow ended up at the top rather than bottom of the tank and therefore out of the solution for most of the development time?

Film is also pressure sensitive but in this case I don't think something mechanical might be causing both the repeating stripes and the lightening of the edges of the films. But, have you noticed any strange resistance when the film is advancing or rewinding in the camera or when loading the reels? Rewinding the film backwards causes multiple thin blacks stripes on the negative as the film bends around the cassette lip in the wrong direction. That's not what is going on here since those types of stripes are much more numerous, very thin, and denser.

More info on your development technique and equipment might help diagnose the problem(s).

I doubt there is anything wrong with the films out of the box. It is a very rare occurrence to see a bad roll or emulsion batch of film from a manufacturer. And you have three rolls of different type and two manufacturers. Odds for 3 bad rolls like that must be billions or more to one.

 

[Patrick Latour]

Ok here are the missing details: Those films were processed individually, in a tank that can hold 2 reels, but I processed it one reel at a time (first error ?). All 3 were developped in xtol stock (should I try 1+1 ?). I did not agitate with the stick in the middle of the reel, I did 3 complete inversions at the beginning of every minutes. With your comments, I think it is a sum of different problems: Loading on the reel, xtol stock instead of 1+1, agitation method. I will shoot another roll of delta 400 and I will try to correct those problems, I will see the difference. Should be able to do it over the next 2 days. Thanks

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Patrick,

If you use a two reel tank with just one reel in it, put one empty reel on top of the one with film in it.

Then, if you have too little developer volume in the tank, your agitations will become much more vigorous than if you have the tank almost full. Basically, whether you process one roll or two rolls, use the same volume of liquid as if you had two rolls. The speed at which the fluid travels inside the tank when you agitate is much much higher when it's only partially filled, and THAT could account for the marks on your negatives.

Make sure to clean your reels and tank really well to avoid contaminants. Darkroom cleanliness is very important for good and consistent results.

My largest tank holds 1,800ml of liquid. I fill the tank with 1,700ml of liquid whether I process five rolls or two. (With all the reels in the tank, 1,700ml easily covers all of the reels and then some). Test with empty reels how much your tank holds versus how much JUST covers the reels, and subtract half the difference between the two volumes to allow movement of the developer as you agitate. Three inversions per agitation cycle lasts about 12 seconds for me. Nice and slow, but determined.

Good luck.

 

[Patrick Latour]

Thanks Thomas, I was actually putting some water in my tank to measure the exact quantity it holds. I should develop something tonight, will keep you all posted.

 

[pentaxuser]

I don't think to sound brusque but of the changes that you will be making I cannot see how Xtol stock could have contributed in any way to the problems or how moving to a 1+1 dilution can help "cure" any of the problems.

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

Sorry I meant to use the word "mean" not think before "to sound". I was watching the exciting penalty shoot-out between Ghana and Uruguay as I was composing it.

pentaxuser

 

[Patrick Latour]

I don't think to sound brusque but of the changes that you will be making I cannot see how Xtol stock could have contributed in any way to the problems or how moving to a 1+1 dilution can help "cure" any of the problems.

pentaxuser

I do not see myself, I was just throwing some ideas of what I should try maybe. I followed the advice of Thomas and measure my tanks to make sure I was filling it appropriately. I have two tanks that can handle 2 35mm films or one 120, when I use it, I prepare 580ml of developer, the test showed me that to be filled appropriately, I should use 650ml, I have a third tank, that can handle 3 35mm or 2 120, I usually use 910ml and the test showed me that I should use 1000ml.

Next roll, I will process it with xtol stock, as usual, but I will fill my tank as I should, I will use an empty reel over, if I process just one film and I will take care of my agitation. Will see from there.

 

[Bob Carnie]

This is a tough one.
for sure it looks like processing issue.

What kind of lid is on the tank??
this looks exactly like light streaking through during development.
Very , Very occassionally we have a bad Jobo lid and the streaking looks exactly like this.
If you are using more than one tank and different lids the problem may be sporadic.
You are showing minus density in the rebate in positive view, which would indicate a plus density on the negative, which a light leak would indeed cause.
If it is a plastic tank , I would be looking for tiny cracks in the tank as well.

I cannot see how this is a agitation issue, as it would be the worst case I have seen.
You would need arms like the govenor of California.

 

[pentaxuser]

If it is your normal practice to develop at least two films together then this advice may be redundant but given the cost of chemicals it might be worthwhile considering using smaller tanks like the Jobo or Durst which require only 250mls for a 35mm film. The Jobo 120 tanks will do 2 x 120 or 2 x 35mm with 485 mls. These savings might seem small but over dozens or even hundreds of film they add up.

pentaxuser

 

[smieglitz]

One other thing: be sure the flange for the light baffle tube is at the bottom of the tank. I've seen slight fogging when people have it at the top.

 

[Neal]

Dear Patrick,

Follow Ian's advice. Lines of the sort you see can be avoided by increasing your agitation. Try is agitating every 30 seconds instead of every minute.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra