My first negs : Scan vs Print

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Which is better?

  • Analog hand print

    Votes: 33 94.3%
  • Scan & inkjet print

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35

snaggs

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Well I've come back from my first shoot using a Linhof Technica III. Wow, its good fun. Only problem is dev for the color negs is expensive (oh well), but also I cant see anything!

So I basically have 2 options. Get them scanned and print on my inkjet, or get a custom print done (hand printed).

Can anyone point me to a comparo of analog printing vs digital printing?

Daniel.
 

Mongo

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There are tons of resources on the net comparing the output from the darkroom with the output from the computer. The hard part is finding a site without an axe to grind. Anyone who's spent thousands of dollars on equipment is going to try to justify their purchase to themselves and to the world, so objectivity in this area is very lacking. (See Luminous-Landscape.com for the perfect example of a photographer who stacks the cards in favor of the results he wants.)

Having said that, I can tell you that I've spent thousands of dollars on both the analog and digital side of photography. In my case (and I admit freely both that my lack of skill might be a factor here and that I may have some personal biases of which I am unaware), I find that my darkroom prints are worlds beyond my computer prints. I do B&W exclusively these days so this data may be useless to you, but I spent six years working with electronic imaging, learning to use every trick in the book as well as using countless combinations of scanners, printers, and ink sets, and my average darkroom prints blow away my best computer prints.

Probably the best thing you can do is to have your lab provide you with both a darkroom print and a scan of the same negative. Work with the scan yourself to see what kind of output you can get from it, then compare it to the darkroom print. (Note: Make sure your lab isn't scanning your negative and giving you a digital print...if they can't give you a real enlargement then look for another lab.) You should be able to determine for yourself, in short order and at a reasonable cost, which method is better for you.

Good luck.
 

127

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There is of course the practical "option 3" compromise - scan, and lightjet print.

Not as nice as a hand printed image (I got a print from rteague in the last print exchange, so I'm convinced how awesome hand printed colour can be - thanks! I REALLY will send mine out soon), but getting the lab to scan and print for you will be a LOT nicer than printing on an inkjet.

Getting the scan printed at the lab is also probably cheaper than doing it yourself, given the cost of inkjet materials.

Ian
 
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Agree with Ian and Mongo.

The answer depends largely upon your preferences and also the volumes of images and sizes that you will want printed. It is a massive subject and question and will need you to do a lot of research to help find your solution.

If this sounds too scary, use an expert in a lab you trust!

Using colour neg and handing this in, means that you will have no idea of how the image will look, colourwise, as you would with a 5x4 tranny.

To make digital prints properly ie with any degree of competence, even if you outsource printing, you will need to get your computer set-up colour managed so that you can adjust file on your monitor and know that this will become the output. Tools and profiles are not cheap, hence the volume part of the equation.
 

Jorge

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Now that you had the negs developed, why dont you have proof prints made? They are cheap and they are done mostly with a light jet or a chromira. Retail printers no longer have 4x5 enlargers in the back, they scan the neg and print them. Which BTW it is absolute crap! I just got back my MF negatives and they look nothing like the prints I used to get from optical systems.
Once you get the proof I guess learning how to do good ink jet prints with something like Ultrachrome might be the ticket.

IMO there is really no sense in learning how to do color enlargements any more, unless you are planning on learning how to do dye transfer. Color papers and chemistry are becoming more scarce every day, learning how to mix your own chemistry wont do you any good if you dont have the papers any more.

Of course, the other alternative is to shoot transparency ( a 4x5 tranny is awesome, and 8x10 is out of this world!) and do Ilfochrome. Of course this will require that you get a 4x5 enlarger and become acomplished at making mask.

There is really no easy answer, you have to make the best choice that fits your budget. Of course, you could become a real phtographer and do black and white...... :smile:

(Leeeets geeet ready to rumble!!!!).....




Kidding guys...no naste PMs please.. :smile:
 

Nick Zentena

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Jorge said:
Color papers and chemistry are becoming more scarce every day, learning how to mix your own chemistry wont do you any good if you dont have the papers any more.


Don't all those digital "printers" use RA-4 paper and chemicals? I know some use high speed paper but the rest are using common paper.
 

Jorge

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Nick Zentena said:
Don't all those digital "printers" use RA-4 paper and chemicals? I know some use high speed paper but the rest are using common paper.
Yes they do, but from what I am seeing paper for enlargement as well as chemistry for home use seems to be more scarce day by day. Kodak and Fuji could not care less for the guy buying a 25 sheet pack, their bussiness is in selling 150 foot rolls for the machines. When was the last time you saw Fuji color paper in 25 sheets pack?
I have no crystal ball, but I bet you a suit in Kodak sooner or later is going to say:" we dont need to be cutting all this sheets in color paper, I can lay off 500 people if I stop and my loss of bussiness will be off set by savings in employee benefits". Sad, but this is how they think....
 

Nick Zentena

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Agfa already has stopped cutting sheets. OTOH I've moved onto rolls. Not much more hassle plus all the sizes I can cut.
 

jd callow

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Colour enlargement is very viable and I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in controlling their work from start to finish. I have no problem getting chems or paper. Unlike B&W, the colour materials available today are the best ever.
 

Dave Parker

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I have not had any difficulties in obtaining Color paper or chemistry either?

Dave
 

roteague

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Nick Zentena said:
Don't all those digital "printers" use RA-4 paper and chemicals? I know some use high speed paper but the rest are using common paper.

In fact, Fuji just announced a new version of their Crystal Archive paper; due out this summer. I don't think RA-4 or color paper is going away anytime soon.
 

roteague

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snaggs said:
Well I've come back from my first shoot using a Linhof Technica III. Wow, its good fun. Only problem is dev for the color negs is expensive (oh well), but also I cant see anything!

I too would suggest shooting Transparencies, I shoot primarily Velvia. Unfortunately, because of where I live I have to ship all my trannies out to be processed. I have been using Chromacolor in San Diego, CA; they charge $2.15 per sheet for processing. However, somone on APUG put me onto a company called Calypso Imaging, in Santa Clara, CA that only charges $1.30 - I don't know why so cheap; I am going to give them a try.
 

Nick Zentena

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The only thing that worries me is the new laser only papers. I don't think those can be used with a normal enlarger.
 

steve

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Since you're shooting 4x5, ask the lab if they can make a contact print of the negatives. If you don't want to do that, get a good flatbed scanner, scan the film and make proofs for yourself to look at.

The lab I use for contact printing will even dodge / burn the contact sheets to try and even out the exposures.

For final prints, you can have them enlarged through the traditional analog print process, scanned and then printed with a LightJet or with an inkjet printer.

If you want traditional wet darkroom processes, finding a truly competent color printer is getting tougher. The best in the business where I live just quit and closed up shop.

If you want to try things digitally, Frontier prints are okay for proofing, but, the best output I've seen by a good lab is still a wretchedly inferior product for a final print to either a traditional enlarged print or a LightJet print.

A scanned image printed with a LightJet (done correctly) looks very close to a traditional print as long as the image does not require a lot of handwork (dodging / burning). No matter what is said about digital lightroom adjustments to individual areas, they aren't as smooth looking as a highly skilled darkroom technician with the same image.

The final look with a digital print will depend upon your skill with Photoshop. I've seen horrid prints from a LightJet all due to the gross, heavy-handed manipulations done to the image in software. That's not a knock on digital process, but on the skill of the person working the digital image - and more importantly, their standards of what is acceptable and constitutes a "good image."

Many knocks against digital are really about bad technical processes. Bad scanning, bad image handling. It's just that some folks, in their zeal to "prove" that digital is inferior lump everything bad they've ever seen into a single category. Contrary to that point of view, I've seen really sucky traditional prints and truly fine digital prints.

But, I also have enough experience, and honesty to tell you that I've seen a lot of bad digital prints due to technical issues, while the amount of analog bad prints are in the minority if done by the photographer or through a truly first rate pro lab with a custom print department run properly.

Conversely, if you want to make large images (bigger than 20x24), a well scanned (Imacon scanner minimum, drum scanner optimum) looks better than the same print made in a wet darkroom because of the inherent optical degredation that comes into play at large sizes. When making large prints, you have the dual problems of running the lens nearly wide open plus long exposures and the heat from the enlarger head which sometimes can cause the film to "pop" (buckle / warp) in the film holder.

For all of those ready to wave Christopher Burkett in my face, he shoots with an 8x10 - we're discussing 4x5.

For digital prints, all scans are not created equally - even with drum scans. The scanner operator, especially with negative films, really has to understand the film type and how to set the scanner black point and a number of other controls to get the best quality scan. There are LOTS of bad drum scans being made and sold at premium prices that result in bad digital prints.

If you're in the United States, it's hard to go wrong with West Coast Imaging or Calypso Imaging. There are also some other good players in regional areas.

As for inkjet printing, that's an issue that causes much distress on this web site so, I'll forge right ahead and give you my opinions. An inkjet print does not look like a print done on traditional color photographic papers. If that's the look you're going for, stay away from inkjet printing.

If however, you are open minded enough to admit that personal creative control of your images can include rendering them through an ink printing process, and you're interested in papers with other than a standard photo look - then inkjet printing has some unique attributes that can be exploited.

If you're familiar with inkjet printing, you'll know everything I'm going to say next. If not, then read further.

There are different levels of printing. Printing on small Epson or HP printers does not equal the output from professional level printing equipment. I own an Epson 1280 and an Epson 9600 - the output with the same image printed at the same size is close, but the 9600 makes a better print. This includes the fact that the 1280 is using a pigment ink, and the paper / ink combination has been profiled.

Professional level printing requires total control and profiling of the entire system, including the papers being used. If you don't do that you get inferior work and it shows. Inkjet printing has a smaller tonal reproduction range than traditional color paper because it cannot make blacks as dark as color photo paper, and depending upon the ink/paper combination, the total gamut is usually smaller.

Printing on glossy paper or even semi-glossy paper with pigment inks is an exercise in futility as gloss differential ruins the image look in my opinion. The HP printers with dye inks on glossy paper look quite good. But, if that's the look I was after, I'd use traditional processes or high quality LightJet work as they look even better.

But, if you want to print on matte paper you can create a certain "feel" to the image that is more closely aligned with fine art lithographic printing than with traditional photography. If you want to explore that type of image reproduction, then inkjet printing is an option that should be considered.

In the end, you need to decide your artistic intent and do what is best for the image.
 

jd callow

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Another great post! If only to knit pic, I have found that finding the black or white point, or trying to colour balance a preview whilst scanning is an unnecessary operation and generally does not produce better results. It is however much faster and probably preferable if you are in a production environment.
 
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I thought the "digital" RA-4 papers were just faster so the light from the machines could get a deeper black especially.

I see a renewed life for colour papers, but the death of colour custom enlarging where I am... This is in part due to the high costs of ink and papers.

I think most big labs are moving/have moved to digital output devices for exposure. That way digital files (captures or film that is scanned) can be corrected/tweaked etc and then 1 "perfect" print is made... The death of the test strip (in theory).

joe
 

jd callow

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Bob Carnie

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I print from digital files via lambda exposing unit and I print from original negatives. Medias I presently use for both are, fibre,ciba,ra4.
This is new technology (1 1/2 years) for us.
black and white- I pull definately in favour to traditional negative to print
Colour- I am starting to pull in favour to digital output.

I find the digital print - traditional print to be like comparing a condenser print to a diffusion print in black and white.(traditional being sharper)
I find that I can control contrast colour enhancement much greator in the digital print when printing cibachrome and RA4.

I will continue to print using both methods as I find that both methodologys have their strengths.

Under no circumstance would any digital operator be able to produce more varied and unique Black and White prints compared to a traditional operator in a given period of time.
This I am sure of.
 

bobfowler

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I might catch some crap for saying this, but here goes...

I'm not going to vote in the poll because I don't think that the answer is that cut and dry.

I shoot ONLY film, but I use a variety of methods for getting a print in hand. If the job doesn't require a labor intensive, hand made custom print, then I sure as hell am not going to spend that much time nor money cranking one out when a scanned neg/inkjet print will do just as well.

I starting to become a fan of hybrid workflow - film acquisition followed by scanning and digital post production, with output through a wet-process digital printer (the AGFA Dlab2 comes to mind). I find that for a large percentage of my commercial and day gig work, this is an excellent way to get predictable results when I can't actually do the darkroom work myself. Is it better than hand made custom prints? No, not better, but not worse either, just different.

I have a good relationship with my local lab and they know to print the files I give them "straight" and that the results will be what I want. This workflow doesn't save me any time either, it takes more effort on my part to scan negs and make the corrections in Photoshop than to just drop negatives off and give them cropping instructions. What it does allow though, is for me to do all of the retouching and dust spotting before the print is made, not to mention contrast control without masks, and getting the exact color balance I need.

Film is still the best for acquisition though, digital looks waxey and fake to me. There is a certain textural quality to a film image that digital doesn't have, but still can come through with scanning and digital output (excellent machine operator skills required, of course!).

Having said all this, I still love the look of a hand made custom print - color or B&W.

OK, my asbestos underwear is on...
 

bobfowler

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Satinsnow said:
Okay Bob, Catch....her is the crap LMFAO...

Dave

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! :smile:
 
OP
OP
snaggs

snaggs

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Thanks all for the replies.. it seems that getting an analog print done is the best option (not to mention the easiest for me!).

Ill get a cheap scanner for proofs and test prints, and then get analog prints of the keepers.

:smile:

Jorge said:
IMO there is really no sense in learning how to do color enlargements any more, unless you are planning on learning how to do dye transfer. Color papers and chemistry are becoming more scarce every day, learning how to mix your own chemistry wont do you any good if you dont have the papers any more.

I wasnt going to this myself.. my local lab (Churchhills), does hand prints from neg, and cibas from tranny. B&W Im going to do myself as a learning experience.

Jorge said:
Of course, the other alternative is to shoot transparency ( a 4x5 tranny is awesome, and 8x10 is out of this world!) and do Ilfochrome. Of course this will require that you get a 4x5 enlarger and become acomplished at making mask.

I was using neg, since Im new to LF and it has more lattitude if I screw up the exposure :smile:

I will do trannies for my landscapes though. But I think Ill practice more with B&W first, since it seems alot cheaper.
 

rjr

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Nick,

"Agfa already has stopped cutting sheets."

Where did you get that? Or does Agfa cut bulk in the USA - following the link you gave later in this thread, the names for the color papers are different from ours?

In Europe both color and bw papers are cut in the same place, a plant in France, while rolls are cut in a dedicated german plant.
 
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