My EPP E-6 is looking more magenta lately.

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by PHOTOTONE, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I use EPP in 4x5 for all my studio product photos. I buy in 50 sheet boxes. I have all fresh in-date film.

    I process in my own 3.5 gallon sink-line. I mix up fresh chemistry every couple of weeks and do not use to exhaustion. I only replenish the bleach. The last couple of boxes of 4x5 Ektachrome EPP is looking rather magenta, which in the past would indicate somewhat old film...but this film is "in-date" with an expiration date of 03/2010. I order my film from reputable dealers I have used for 20 years or more.

    Oddly enough, if it were a chemistry problem, 35mm Fuji Provia I have processed a couple of days ago looks great.

    Could my water quality (I use city water) have changed enough in the last year to affect the color balance of Kodak E-6 chemistry? Affect the color on Kodak films but not Fuji films?

    It's a puzzling problem.
     
  2. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I've seen it go magenta when it was old, and in most instances the Dmax will have slipped as well. Are the highlights fogged? Do you have any test strips? Have you sent any out to a good lab for comparison purposes? Do you have a densitometer that you can use to compare a good batch with a bad or to confirm that the test strips are within spec's? Have you run any other kodak, non EPP E6 films through your chems and if so are the results good?

    Could it be that your reputable dealer hasn't properly stored the film? If the test strips come out good and an outside lab gets the same magenta results as you I'd call your dealer. If the test strips come out bad and the outside lab gets good results, I'd think it was your chems or water.

    BTW I love EPP.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I live many hundreds of miles away from ANY lab that does E-6, hence I do it myself. I have not run any test strips. My reputable dealer, Unique Photo orders the film from Kodak and ships it to me, they do not warehouse it anymore.

    I don't have any test strips, I guess I will have to order them.

    I have always mixed up fresh chemistry (and my chemistry concentrates are fresh, also) and it has worked great.

    Using an outside lab (for testing) would be difficult, as I would have to find one first, and determine if it were reputable.
     
  4. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Phototone,
    PE may step in and give you your answer, but I would find it hard to isolate the problem without using an outside source. If you chems are bad it is unlikely that any lab you'd use would suffer from the same problem. If the lab is not good then in all likelihood the problems they introduce would be different.

    Good Luck
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I find it hard to imagine a process problem that would affect Kodak E6 but not Fuji E6. Of course you must consider that the MQ developer times differ between these products, are you sure that is correct??

    All things then being equal and correct, the problem points to the Kodak film having been kept poorly or having a defect.

    PE
     
  6. OP
    OP
    PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    On another forum, it was suggested that it "might" be my reversal bath concentration or agitation. Excessive reversal bath concentration or excessive agitation of the film in the bath could push the film towards magenta, and it was also stated that Fuji films may be less sensitive to reversal bath variations.
     
  7. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

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    I seem to remember reading quite some time ago, (I really can't remember where - a photo mag, I'm sure,) that the pH of the colour developer affected balance. Adjusting the pH moved balance between warm and magenta. Sorry I can't remember which ph shift did which. I do remember that it was relatively small pH changes which caused this. Could your water supply have changed at all?

    Hope this helps - at least a little!
     
  8. tim_walls

    tim_walls Subscriber

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    The only useful contribution I ever make to this forum is thanks to my bookmark of the Kodak E-6 processing manuals - http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/retailPhoto/techInfo/zManuals/z119.jhtml

    If you haven't already read them, they would be a good place to look - particularly section 12 'visual troubleshooting of process E-6.' Magenta colour shift according to that indicates:

    Color developer pH low
    Color developer concentrated
    Too much Part B in color developer
    Underreplenished color developer

    The fact the Fuji E6 is apparently OK is of course rather odd though... Apologies if teaching grandma to suck eggs though, I just find that manual invaluable and it's always my first port of call with E6 problems.
     
  9. bob100684

    bob100684 Member

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    Try developing a roll of any given kodak e-6 film just to convince yourself its not the chemicals. My bet is messed up epp.
     
  10. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    Magenta highlights often mean colour developer p.h is too low, Kodak films are more sensitive than Fuji in this respect as the ph drops more it will go magenta-blue.
    Often Labs that use Fuji Hunt chemicals will run both Kodak and Fuji process control strips as kodak picks this one up earlier and if you have a lot of Kodak using customers...
    The solution to this common problem (pun intended) is a 10% aqueous solution of NaOH applied to the colour dev.
    What you do is make up the solution and keep it in a glass bottle (mix only with cold water) you then add about 10-20 ml of the (already 10% solution) per litre of tank solution.
    We used to test our dip and dunk daily with a ph meter, I think ph 11 is normal less and magenta blue is coming your way...
    Mark
     
  11. analogsnob

    analogsnob Member

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    E6 color developer ph is a blue -yellow (low to high) change. Check the cd concentration (should be 1.036 @100 IIRC) You can eliminate the reversal as a cause by running a sheet with light reexposure bypassing the reversal bath completely.

    Fuji and Kodak do react differently and infact the proportions of film types run can produce different effects. Lots of cross processing for instance will change the replenishment balance causing odd problems. When you think about it that Fuji and Kodak and whoall else produced films that all process together in E6 is pretty remarkable.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Do you mean cross processing (C41 in E6 or E6 in C41) or mixed processing of Fuji + Kodak in the same process?

    PE
     
  13. OP
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    PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    Since my original question was about E-6 I think the respondent was talking about mixing brands and types of films in E-6 can affect color balance. Now, I don't replenish, I just replace ever few weeks, and I run a 3.5 gallon line. I keep track of the number of sheets, and never exceed capacity, (I do replenish bleach, though). I do increase first developer time after the first couple of runs, and I keep extending first developer time until I replace the developer.
     
  14. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    I would try a different box from a different source and see what happens.

    How do you print your pix? Litho prints?
     
  15. OP
    OP
    PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I don't print my 4x5 transparencies, they are used for reproduction in catalogs of products. They are scanned, and the backgrounds dropped out.

    I doubt there is enough 4x5 EPP around to pick and choose various distributors, as they all order it from Kodak as needed. The last batch I got, was ordered from Kodak and shipped to me same day it arrived at distributor.
     
  16. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    That's not true when the ph drops it goes magenta.
    Blue would be fist dev related normally athough magenta blue can be caused by tin formation (and over concentation) in reversal bath.
    I ran an E-6 line for 6 years, saw this often. NaOH is the cure.
    Here is the Kodak documentation.
    http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z119-12.pdf
    scroll down top of the second page.
    Mark