MGIV warmtone - low contrast?

[Don Wallace]

I am still on the slow part of the learning curve in the darkroom. For now, I am sticking with Ilford MGIV warmtone fibre paper in Dektol mixed 1:3. I am using a Devere 504 with a dichroic head and recently, I calibrated the paper for my system so I could change contrast without changing printing time. At a certain point, sooner than I expected, the contrast no longer increased. The maximum contrast was at magenta 58 and yellow 14, which corresponds to about 3.5 in paper grade.

Does this sound right? Is MGIV warmtone in Dektol just not very contrasty?

 

[Ian Grant]

Is your safelight safe ? That might sound a stupid question but I used to use a Orange Red one and couldn't get good high contrasts with Multigrade, as soon as I bought the Brown Multigrade fiilter the problem was solved.

The safelight causes a similar effect to print flashing reducing the contrast, there was a bit written about this back in the late 70's or early 80's, some manufacturers inroduced specific VC filters becuse of this. My orange-red safelight passed aall the normal tests it didn't cause any fogging. Like you I couldn't get greater than about Grade 3½.

Ian

 

[Don Wallace]

Ian, interesting! I use an old Kodak OC orange filter. I will switch to a regular red (and smaller) safelight and see what happens.

 

[paul_c5x4]

Try fitting a new bulb (lamp) in the head - As they age beyond a certain point, the quality of light changes. Or at least that is what I found on a C7700.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Halogen bulbs used in De Vere Dichroic heads tend not to age like Tungsten bulbs, they tend to blow long before they age

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

This isn't to imply that you have done your calibration wrongly but if you look at Ilford's own suggested dual filtration figures they seem to go a lot higher than 58M and 14Y.Eventually you run out of any Y and grade 5 for the Durst(130 unit enlarger) is, I think, 130Y which is exactly what it is for single filtration. Some say that with a dichroic head grade 4.5 is about max obtainable but I would think that more than 3.5 should be possible.

Have your tried max Y? The exposure will not be the same but you should see a difference in the grade compared to 3.5.

pentaxuser

 

[Don Wallace]

Ian, you are right about the halogen bulbs. Also, there is a fairly new set in the head now.

You got me thinking about another factor. I don't have the proper master negative carrier for the Devere so I get a fair amount of light leak out the sides. I wonder if that, combined with the large OC safelight, is reducing my contrast.

Why the brown filter (and where would I get one)? Why not simply red? And I don't mean the 80s band.

 

[Ian Grant]

902 Brow is a recommended filter, it really depends on a lot of factors including the size of the darkroom, distance of the light from the paper during exposure & processing. Dark red should be fine, the brown is easier to work with that's all

My issues began when I moved to a new smaller darkroom with a lower ceiling.

Try shielding the edges of the neg carrier, I get a bit of light from the edges of my De Vere 5108 but I have the walls etc paponted matt black around the enlarger so it makes no difference.

Ian

 

[Don Wallace]

pentax, I used a Stouffer step wedge, but beyond 58M/14Y, nothing changed. I found that rather wierd myself. I will do a test with Ilford's recommended settings and see what happens. Wouldn't max Y give me very low contrast?

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

You will have trouble keeping a constant printing time for grades 4 & 5 (unless, of course, you artificially increase the printing time for the lower contrast grades).

As suggested, try slamming the filtration to the limit - 0 Y; 200 M - and see if that gets you the contrast you are looking for, ignoring for the moment the matter of printing time.

It is not uncommon to have to use a grade 5 under-lens-filter to get the maximum contrast from the paper.

Unless it is fogging the paper, the color of the safelight will make no difference to the maximum contrast you can attain.

 

[Ian Grant]

Unless it is fogging the paper, the color of the safelight will make no difference to the maximum contrast you can attain.

The safelight problem happens even when there is no actual fogging of the paper, you can do the usula test and think it's OK, it was well written about 20 years ago.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

It is possible that the dichroic filters are not wheeling in as you dial in the Magenta.
You need to observe the filter as it is dialed into the light path, not sure how to do this on the 4x5. Sometimes they stick and you can only get filtration to a certain point.

I use a 11x14 Devere and have no problem getting higher contrast.

 

[craigclu]

I have some limited experience with this paper and initially had results that I would say might mirror yours. The paper seemd to come alive with deeper, truer blacks when I used a colder tone developer. I initially suspected the safelight fogging potentials but in my case, this didn't turn out to be the problem. A chance use of the paper with some 130 and benzotiazole substituted for the normal bromide (per a comment by Evan Clarke in an APUG post) gave me the rest of the range that had been missing.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

On Monday I tested some 5 year old MGWT RC that Jessops sold off. Printing under 902 safelight filters, the contrast held up fine in Fotospeed PD-5, impressive for fairly old RC multigrade paper.

Tom

 

[2F/2F]

FWIW, when I print on this paper, I usually need to print using a higher than normal filter. My "normal" negatives for regular MGFB are usually too flat for me on Warmtone. It is pretty standard that I need to use a 3-1/2 filter, and sometimes a 4 when using this [lovely] paper.

 

[Ben 4]

Stronger Mix of Dektol?

Like others here, I don't have trouble getting satisfactory contrast out of this paper, though it does require stronger filtration than MGIV. If you look carefully at Ilford's contrast figures for the two papers, I think you'll see (if I'm remembering correctly) that MGWT tests about a half a grade lower than MGIV across the board at the same filtration.

But I'm wondering about your developer. I don't use Dektol, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the standard dilution 1:2? Might it be worth trying 1:2, or even 1:1, and see if that helps?

--Ben

 

[Don Wallace]

Ben, 1:2 is common but so is 1:3 with longer development time, and I always develop to completion. I will give it a try though. It is good to know from you and others that this paper is indeed lower contrast than others.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I do not find this a low contrast paper , in fact it is a wonderful paper for high contrast work.
You are stating that you do not get any more contrast above 58m which you say equals 3.5 grade.
I have been printing with this paper exclusively since it was launched by Ilford and my experience does not match you or others here.
I still believe you have a problem with the dichroic filter in the head and there is tones of room to increase grades with this paper

Ben, 1:2 is common but so is 1:3 with longer development time, and I always develop to completion. I will give it a try though. It is good to know from you and others that this paper is indeed lower contrast than others.

 

[pentaxuser]

pentax, I used a Stouffer step wedge, but beyond 58M/14Y, nothing changed. I found that rather wierd myself. I will do a test with Ilford's recommended settings and see what happens. Wouldn't max Y give me very low contrast?

Sorry yes. I meant that for grade 5 Ilford recommends most of what is available at the high M end of the M filter. 130Y is for negs requiring very low contrast prints.

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

If you can borrow or have a set of under the lens filters then try the 4 and 5 filters and remove the dichroic ones with the white light lever or however you do it with your enlarger. If that produces two successively higher contrast prints that you can get with your dichroic head then it would seem that Bob Carnie has identified the correct problem which I suspect he has.

pentaxuser

 

[Bob Carnie]

It is a very common problem with dichroic enlargers for slippage, stickiness,gear worn out issues with the three filters that slide into the light beam.
It is the first thing we looked for in the day . I worked at labs with over 100 dichroic enlargers in operations and the constant dialing of the filters took their toll.
The Deverre I use has 200magenta capability which I assure you matches a grade 5 filter printing on Ilford Warm Tone.
Another little side note with Dichroic filtration with manual adustments. If you are split printing with this type of enlarger or multiple negative printing , always approach the final number you are looking for from one direction , never approach back and forth until you get it. If you always come from the same direction you will get consistant results, coming at the number from above or below , will sometimes give you inconsistant results.
this is due to the gear mechanisim to the dichroics being a bit wonky.
This is very true with colour RA4 printing on a dichoic.

The only thing I do not like about ILFORD WARMTONE is the colour of the package, when Terry Bevins of Ilford asked me to beta test this paper when launched , I almost got sick looking at the package and was thinking ,, WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE BRITS THINKING,, until I opened the box put it in the easel and printed with it.** I made this paper my mainstay for my printing business, I only wish they could produce it for my lasers.

I have been printing now since 1973 , on a regular basis and the last 20 years printing has been the only source of income for me.
I have seen hundreds of papers over this time and wish some of them were still around and others proved to be real garbage in all manner of ways.

I will say this.
Ilford Warmtone Glossy paper ranks right up with any paper that I have used and those dissing this paper really need to do some proper testing.
It has a beautiful range, it is always consistant, it tones well , and the supply has always been there.... *except for those very dark days***
Simon , you can send my cheque to my new address.

 

[Don Wallace]

Bob, don't midunderstand me - I love the paper! I was just surprised that the contrast range after my tests seemed to be fairly limited. If there are no solutions to this with developer and enlarger, I will simply increase the contrast in the development of my negatives.

The test I did was to come up with M/Y combinations that used the same exposure time. Beyond the combination I mentioned, there was simply no change. I guess I will have to go back to the drawing board (or darkroom easel) and look at using only yellow or only magenta, but I find that a real PITA since I have to retest every time for the new exposure time. I have not had a chance to get down into the darkroom but I am going to take another look at this soon, hopefully over the weekend.

I checked on the Ilford website and the data there for variable contrast papers says that the maximum contrast possible with the Devere is 4 1/2 (0y/150M) not 5. This would be fine for me since what I am now getting is only about 3 1/2.

Perhaps I should change my question. What procedures do you folks use to calibrate a colour head for variable contrast printing?