MF film rolls: design and convenience

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arigram

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One thing not often mentioned about MF film, types 120 and 220 is not their image characteristics but their "packaging" and "psysical design".
What I am talking about is their wrapping which differs from manufacturer unlike type 135 which is set on the almost perfect plastic/metal canister.
Its really easy to fog and destroy a 120/220 roll when being careless or unlucky when loading and unloading.
Things that make it easier:

1. Cross slits on the top and bottom of the plastic roll in which the film winds. Not all manufacturers use it and a single slit makes it a bit more difficult to attach the film to the camera back. One of the reasons I stopped using Tri-X as the ones that I've used had one slit in contrast to the cross slit that Ilford uses.
2. Sticky tape. Having a self-adhesive on the tape that holds the film together when its exposed is much better than having to lick it each time. Licking for one thing feels silly, its much slower and plus sometimes it doesn't work. I recently got some Ilford film that didn't stick immediately and had to leave them on the table before I throw them inside the special Manfrotto pouch, which is trouble when you are shooting on the street and not at the studio. Fuji color film I have used uses self-adhesive tape and feels so much better and faster.
3. Containers. 135 uses containers, why doesn't all 120/220 also use them, especially since they are much more needed. Some manufacturers use them, like Adox and Rollei and they are perfect for sensitive film which fogs and unrolls easilly. Plus it makes it faster and saves you from all that garbage of the paper box and foil wrap, which in a studio fills a bucket on the street fills your pocket or the floor. Why, can't developers offer, let's say, boxes of 10, 50 or 100 rolls in plastic containers? I wanted to buy some but have to order from abroad and they were not available when I did.
4. The protruding edge of the 120/220 paper that inserts inside the middle slit of the plastic roll when you load it in the camera, sometimes its too short and makes it hard to quickly finish the job.

I can't think of something else as for one I am new to photography and especially medium format, but I feel there is much that can be done to make 120/220 packaging design faster, safer and more convenient.
How about a certain design (which I can't think of the moment) that makes it impossible to unwind or fog the film? It would make professionals that use lots of it, on the street or studio much happier as they wouldn't need to slow down and take special care of it, unlike 135.
I mentioned four things that are available and some products have, how about more companies use those designs?
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Fuji rollfilm is particularly quick to load thanks to the hole in the paper tab which locks into a tab in the center of the takeup spool (as long as it's a Fuji spool). I like that and the Adox plastic containers.
 

wclavey

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Fuji rollfilm is particularly quick to load thanks to the hole in the paper tab which locks into a tab in the center of the takeup spool (as long as it's a Fuji spool).

Exactly what I was going to say. If everyone would put the hole in the paper leader and the tab on the spool... I have been thinking about simply saving a bag full of Fuji spools and always using one of them rather than the empty one I just created, and using a hole puncher to make a hole in the leader... sound a bit compulsive, I know...
 

jim appleyard

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I agree, but licking the adhesive and sticking to the rest of the roll is so much more macho! :smile:
 

fhovie

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The canisters for 120 film rolls were available at J&C - I don't know if they will have them when they come back = The J&C 100 came with the canister for about a buck a roll - I bought a bunch of them for the canister. The film is poor: It is really thin and it curls really bad. The backing also absorbs moisture and will ruin film if not processed right away.
 

Terence

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The containers take up too much room. I prefer just shoving the small rolls in my pocket when out shooting. Less packaging would be nice, though.

After 70-80 some-odd years, I doubt we'll be seeing much more innovation on the MF film design. 70mm answers some of these issues, but creates others. And there aren't many suppliers left for 2 perf 70mm film.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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I agree, but licking the adhesive and sticking to the rest of the roll is so much more macho! :smile:

Yeah, and a self-adhesive paster would mean accumulating a pocketful of little release paper tabs at the end of a day's shoot. I've tried shooting some old 2x3" pack film, just to see what it was like, and one of the things I didn't like about it was that you ended up with a waste sheet of black interleaving paper for every shot--well, this is worse than the release paper tab from a self-adhesive paster, but I'm okay with licking the pasters.
 

jim appleyard

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Can you see John Wayne or Clint Eastwood pulling off the little self-adhesive tab and sticking it to the rest of the roll? No way, they're lick-it & stick-it men! :smile:
 

wirehead

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I usually keep the wrappers to hold finished roll and start-tape. Better than nothing and keeps me from littering.

But, yeah, fuji films are beautifully designed. The end tapes are self-adhesive, but in such a way as to not create more mess. And they've got the hole-and-catch thing. I tend to save fuji take-up spools so I can be sure to take advantage of the hole-and-catch.
 

Photo Engineer

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IDK about you guys but try using a speed graphic in mid air, upside down, at 3 gs. Then think of it as a 35mm camera. I think you have all been pampered. Or that you want to be.....

:wink: :wink: :D

PE
 
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arigram

arigram

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Any chance of seing such packaging improvements from Ilford?
 

Antje

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Yeah, and a self-adhesive paster would mean accumulating a pocketful of little release paper tabs at the end of a day's shoot. I've tried shooting some old 2x3" pack film, just to see what it was like, and one of the things I didn't like about it was that you ended up with a waste sheet of black interleaving paper for every shot--well, this is worse than the release paper tab from a self-adhesive paster, but I'm okay with licking the pasters.

The Fuji design is really cool. There are no paper taps, the sticky end is folded onto itself. You just unfold it and paste it. No mess, no strange taste in the mouth, and no nasty comments from male onlookers. Very neat! :D

Antje
 

erikg

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I miss the minty adhesive that agfapan used to have. There is something about licking the tape, combined with the smell of the roll film that seems to connect me to a different age.... that said, i agree with what has been suggested, reduce the waste with canisters and the fuji system is very nice. Great on a job or in the field.
 

nworth

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All the things mentioned are little things that should be well within the capabilities of any film manufacturer. I'm not real fussy about any of them, but they are practical suggestions. One problem that sometimes occurs with MF film is that the sealing tape at the exposed end breaks or come loose, and you are left with a roll of exposed film with no good way of keeping it together. Better reliability for that tape would help. (I keep a bunch of adhesive labels printed "Exposed" in my camera bage for such contigencies.)

If someone wanted to design a new MF film package for new MF cameras, my choice would be to adapt the APS cassette system to 70mm film.
 

Sirius Glass

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All the things mentioned are little things that should be well within the capabilities of any film manufacturer. I'm not real fussy about any of them, but they are practical suggestions. One problem that sometimes occurs with MF film is that the sealing tape at the exposed end breaks or come loose, and you are left with a roll of exposed film with no good way of keeping it together. Better reliability for that tape would help. (I keep a bunch of adhesive labels printed "Exposed" in my camera bage for such contigencies.)

If someone wanted to design a new MF film package for new MF cameras, my choice would be to adapt the APS cassette system to 70mm film.

Then neither of my 120 film camera could take the cassette.

It is very hard to change a standard that is almost 100 years old.

Steve
 

kunihiko

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Why not create a new standard for next 100 years:wink:
 

Ole

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I miss the minty adhesive that agfapan used to have. ...

I can assure you that it really was mint for a while. I'm allergic, and three rolls in one day was enough to blister my tongue.

No, I don't miss the minty tabs at all.
 

Brac

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Back in the 70's I bought some Fuji 120 colour negative films which came in light brown plastic canisters with clip on tops. Really useful, I've still got the canisters.

Unfortunately with the decline in roll-film sales it seems unlikely that anyone will go to the expense of changing their packaging. Probably many of the surviving manufactuers have large quantities of their existing materials in stock which could last them several years.
 
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arigram

arigram

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Just got my first ADOX film. The plastic canisters that the film comes in are excellent for practicallity, but also for presentation. The shiny etched ADOX log on the cap and the sticker make it look much classier than 120 wrapped in foil and paper box. I may shoot some of these just so I can use the boxes with my other film. Rollei R3 also comes in a nice plastic canister but not their other films.
Too bad Ilford doesn't use these. And I am still having trouble with my recent batch of PanF+ of which the exposed paper doesn't want to stick well and seal the roll.
 

ijsbeer

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isn't there an adress where we can buy only the canisters? I only use Ilford so...

greets ijsbeer
 
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arigram

arigram

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isn't there an adress where we can buy only the canisters? I only use Ilford so...

greets ijsbeer

Fotoimpex is out of them. I don't know who else sells them in Europe.
 

Paul.

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Sorry to put a damper on the thread but I just do not have a problem with 120 as it is.
Found a light tight plastic roll holder that takes 2 rolls of film at a camera fair and carry that in my pocket with unwraped films ready to go. have a couple of elastic bands around roll holder to keep roll tight in emergancies, have no problem loading Hasselblad backs while on the move.

Maybe we should just learn to use what we have got instead of nagging film makers to invest in technoligy to make our lives a little [not much mind ] easier. Come on people just use the bloody film and make pictures, there are more than enough threads in Product Availability bemoaning the loss of one film or another lets not put more hoops for manufacture's to jump through because we cannot be botherd to learn and master a simple prosses.

Rant over.
Regards Paul.
 
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arigram

arigram

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Maybe Paul you don't care about the advancement of our tools and materials but consider that at least Ilford is listening to us and that others, including FujiFilm, Rollei, Maco, Adox and Kodak are constantly coming out with new products or improving their old.
You are being negative. Suggestions and complains are not just whining and moaning, they are mostly constructive criticism and ideas on improvement coming out from a photographer's experience not a lab designer.
I carry my Hasselblad on the street and know how to handle the film in difficult situations, but considering we are not talking about new or high technology, some improvements that could make our life easier (and help us take better photos), do you think are worthless?
I wouldn't like my film to unroll because the paper didn't stick and because I forgot to carry a rubber band or tape. Its the film manufacturer's duty to come up with a quality product, both in image but also in design.
 

kiku

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Sorry to put a damper on the thread but I just do not have a problem with 120 as it is. .......
Regards Paul.

Hi Paul! Ditto what you said; I've been using 120 film for about 40 years with no problems. (Long live 120 film and the 6x6 format) Howard Tanger
 
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