Looking for lens with 16x20 coverage

Discussion in 'Ultra Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by Harry Nowell, Jul 8, 2016.

  1. Harry Nowell

    Harry Nowell Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Location:
    Chelsea, Quebec
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I have built an 8x10 camera and have used it successfully for a couple of years.
    I'm now looking for a lens that would have 16x20 coverage.

    Someone suggested a process camera lens but initial research suggests they don't have wide coverage.

    Any ideas or leads on where to find a lens that'll cover 16x20?

    Thanks,
    Harry
     
  2. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=166

    Also 890/11 and 1200/9 and longer Apo-Nikkors, 1000 and longer Apo-Ronars and 35" and longer Apo-Artars.

    Here's a link to a set of links to lens catalogs: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...005&authkey=!ACp3Kf30SHN3MwY&ithint=file,docx

    Now go and do your own legwork. Most Tessar types -- there are many such listed in the catalogs -- with focal lengths >= 550 mm will cover 16 x 20. None of these lenses is common, you'll have to be patient and keep looking.

    Thinking of which, a couple of weeks ago I saw a pretty home made 16 x 20 with a 700/6.3 Boyer Saphir hung in front of a curtain shutter extracted from a Mentor Panorama. If you want timed exposures you'll have to do something like that. Poorly timed, well, there are always big Packards.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Harry Nowell

    Harry Nowell Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Location:
    Chelsea, Quebec
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Thanks Dan!
     
  4. Ari

    Ari Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    833
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
  5. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

    Messages:
    8,440
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Connecticut,
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Ari, that's great! Do you know why more modern lenses like Fuji and Nikkor were completely left out?
     
  6. Ari

    Ari Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    833
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    No idea, Stone. Maybe because they're very well-known quantities, already documented elsewhere.
     
  7. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

    Messages:
    8,440
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Connecticut,
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the link it really is great, almost wish there was an app :wink: hah!
     
  8. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Allen Rumme and I have tangled so take everything I say about him with several bushels of salt.

    His list is incomplete and he seems to have stopped maintaining it. He's pretty much missed some important lens makers. His lists of lenses by well-known makers are incomplete. His assignment of lenses to categories is sometimes a bit odd. I'm sure he had reasons for doing things the way he did. The best way to find out is to ask him directly.
     
  9. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  10. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,962
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2004
    Location:
    fairfield co
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I have a 480mm schneider..interested? ??
     
  11. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hmm. Schneider claims that the 480/8.4 and /9.4 Symmar-S covers 500 mm @ f/22, recommends it for 10 x 12. 16 x 20's diagonal is ~ 610 mm. What am I missing?
     
  12. OP
    OP
    Harry Nowell

    Harry Nowell Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Location:
    Chelsea, Quebec
    Shooter:
    Large Format
  13. OP
    OP
    Harry Nowell

    Harry Nowell Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Location:
    Chelsea, Quebec
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Thanks - I tested a Nikon 480 and it's not big enough for 16x20 at small apertures.
    Anyone have a reasonably priced 610mm or bigger?!

    Thanks though...
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Harry, not to rain on your parade but if Nikon's claims are to be believed the 480/9 Apo-Nikkor covers 407 mm and the 610/9 covers 517 mm, a tiny bit more than Peter's 480 Schneider. Not as much as you need. The 760/11 will come close.

    Any minute now someone will pop up to tell us that his/her/its 610/9 Apo-Nikkor covers 20x24 with movements. Any minute now.

    One of process lenses' drawbacks for general use is that most are narrow angle lenses. Most wide angle, so called, process lenses cover no more than 60 degrees. And none of them is long enough to cover 16x20. I know, the world's unfair, not to say harsh and unforgiving.
     
  16. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

    Messages:
    8,440
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Connecticut,
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Hate to rain on your parade further but that IS reasonably priced for lenses that cover 16x20... Especially with a shutter, you may find a few for $750-$800 sans-shutter, but in shutter I doubt you'll find one at the under $1,000 range easily. Anything is possible.

    With the exception of the Nikkor 450 M lens that I've READ can cover 16x20 stopped down smaller than f/22 but that's wide, not 600+ range. I have the 450 M but only have a 14x17. Though it covers that just fine wide open...

    The 450 M can be found as low as $400 because the 450 C is so much smaller so the 450 M is much cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  17. MLG

    MLG Subscriber

    Messages:
    15
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Shooter:
    Traditional
    In my book the Nikkor-M 450 covers 7x17 ... just. It all depends on what you are going to do with those negatives. I do drum scanning and encountered quite a fall-off (resolution/sharpness) at the corners. I wouldn't use this lens for formats bigger than 7x17 (yes - it illuminates the very corners up to 16x20 - but how?).
     
  18. Peter De Smidt

    Peter De Smidt Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Fond du Lac,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  19. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

    Messages:
    8,440
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Connecticut,
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Sure, but most who are shooting large are contact printing not scanning, 8x10 or 4x5 Wouod make more sense for someone drum scanning. "In my book" anyway.

    Sadly, my test images for the wide open shot with my home built 14x17 was plagued with light leak, I hadn't seated the holder properly and it wasn't flush against the back BUT you can still see that there's no actual falloff of light at the corners. The corners are all out of focus so it doesn't tell anything for sharpness. When the new 14x17 that's a lot more refined is complete, I'll make new images, but for now this crappy light leaked image will have to do.

    Again, total fail as a test image (and not supposed to be very artistic) but sufficient to see that there's little/no discernible fall off at the edges. Look between the upper right and bottom left corners. Neither are dark.

    Ektascan1417-R50-6mR-240001-Pmerge.jpg

    And the second image at f/22 which I didn't totally have light leak with...

    Ektascan1417-R50-6mR-600007-Pmerge.jpg

    Suffice to say the 450 M is perfectly fine on a 14x17 size wide open and as many have noted, 20x24 at f/22
     
  20. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    24,821
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    paswonquitte
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    most of my suggestions are not modern ...
    you might look into a 1a wollensak triple convertible ( 13-20-25 ) . the 1a covers 11x14 easily
    with both cells at the widest fl ( 13" ) , single cells will throw even more of a circle.
    also veritos, vestas and some of the other wollensak "V" lenses are able/made to be
    converted ... the olde catalogs on camereccentric will tell you the fl's turner reich triples used
    (manhatten/gaundalch?) also made large fl triple conv. lenses and might be worth looking into
    ( they don't cost much )
    in additoin to the triple, i use a 14" rectalinaer lens/es... they are also convertible, and might also be your friend.
    all the lenses i have mentioned, wide open they have nice OOF/bokeh, stoppd down they are sharp.
    good luck!
    the wollensak triple and tr usually are in shutters ( betax + whatever the TR was marketed in )
    the V wollensak's are sometimes in betax, sometimes alphas, sometimes studio shutters and sometimes
    like the brass RR lenses .. in a barrel.

    for BRAND-NEW lenses, you might contact reinhold schable, an apug member
    and lens maker/seller. he makes and sells wollaston meniscus barrel lenses
    together with waterhouse stops as well as shutters that cover the format you need covered.

    good luck !
    john
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  21. Leigh B

    Leigh B Member

    Messages:
    2,140
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You're missing the fact that 16 x 20 diagonal is 650mm, not 610.

    - Leigh
     
  22. Emile de Leon

    Emile de Leon Member

    Messages:
    96
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Location:
    Middletown c
    210XL
     
  23. wiltw

    wiltw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,426
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Location:
    SF Bay area
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    There once were lenses designed to cover 16x20" (or perhaps larger) areas, which were used in the electronics industry to photograph printed circuit rubylith enlarged patterns and reduce them to the actual size of the printed circuit board. Unfortunately I cannot offer more specifics, apart from knowing of their existence, as I used to manage a design service about 30 years ago which used computerized techniques to output PCB patterns to film directly rather than employing rubylith intermediate patterns.

    Like this http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00UrwC

    in the above link is a reference to a 600mm f/9 APO Ronar, on a camera for 24" x 36" film!

    Here is a lens for a NuArc graphic arts camera, but I have no idea about its coverage area http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282325712932?lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&item=282325712932&rmvSB=true

    And coincidentally there is a brand new ad on APUG for a NuArc 14x18 process lens
    (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  24. Dan Fromm

    Dan Fromm Member

    Messages:
    4,983
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    wiltw, close but no cigar. Rodenstock claims that the 600 Apo-Ronar covers 46 degrees. That means ~ 510 mm at infinity. 16x20 needs a 620 mm circle.

    Re your second and third suggestions, a 210 mm lens that covers 620 mm has to cover 111 degrees. Not close, definitely no cigar.
     
  25. RobertP

    RobertP Member

    Messages:
    1,193
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Look for a 24 inch Dagor. A 19 will cover too at smaller apertures. If newer glass is what you want there is always the 550mm Schneider XXL but that probably is not in your price range. You'll be hard pressed to find a good lens that will cover 16x20 in the 1000.00 range. Probably the closest to that price range would be a 30 inch Artar. But when you decide to get into ULF photography you have to realize that the cost of photography goes up dramatically. Of course there are other options. If it is a larger negative you desire for contact printing in alt processes and are on a limited budget you could always enlarge a small negative. Check out the hybrid site. With that said, I'll be the first to admit making an in-camera ULF negative and working with that huge ground glass is addicting. Just remember every time you hit that shutter on a 16x20 camera its gonna cost you 25.00 if not more. Good luck
     
  26. wiltw

    wiltw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,426
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Location:
    SF Bay area
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I wasn't necessarily suggesting any of those in my previous posts as necessarily covering 16x20", I was merely providing the illustration of large process cameras used in industrial cameras for graphic arts or PCB lithography.

    OTOH, the 600mm APO-Ronar has been listed as having this coverage by this source:
    http://www.wetplatesupplies.com/rodenstock-apo-ronar-600mm-f9-n-f-lens.html
    • 24x30 inches at 1:1
    • 20x24 at 1:2
    • 15x18" at 1:5
    • 14x17" at 1:10
    "The Apo-Ronar is the classic process lens. But the scope of this lens, withits outstanding definition, goes far beyond process and product shots. With a field angle of around 48 degrees it is a first-class long focal lenght lens for all formats whose long side is not larger than half the focal lenght. A lens which is light, compact, attractively priced and still superior in sharpness and field angle to tele lens designs. As the image circle increases with camera extension, the Apo-Ronar can also be used for larger formats in the close-up and macro range."

    Another post commented, "An older Rodenstock brochure I have lists the coverage of the 600 mm f9 Apo-Ronar as 43 degrees, 476 mm at aperture f11; 45 degrees, 496 mm at f22. These are for reproduction ratio 1:infinity. " And as one can see, when reproduction is closer to 1:2 it has no issues with 16"x20". Lenses behave quite differently for reproduction at/close to macro scales. What we have no idea about is what the OP's intention is, in seeking a lens for 16x20 coverage.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies. If you have a Photrio account, please log in (and select 'stay logged in') to prevent recurrence of this notice.