Lith printing - Fomatone Nature 532 II

Fintan · Sep 5, 2008

I've just started playing with this paper and developing it in fotospeed lith developer.

I'm getting a nice brown tone but its a little bit too yellowish.

Can I ask more experienced lith printers what variable would you experiment with first for a less yellow result?

Weaker/stronger dev?
Longer/Shorter development?
Longer/shorter exposure?
Higher/Lower temp?
Fresher/Older dev?
+ or - Old brown?

Any ideas?

Fintan

Andrew Moxom · Sep 5, 2008

Fintan, what dev times are you using? The reason I ask is that longer dev times with more dilute lith developer on foma paper liberates more pink/salmon colored hues. Are you selenium toning afterwards also? That might change that yellow colour somewhat as well.

Gary Holliday · Sep 5, 2008

How long did you develop it for? Try a longer processing time, but you would probably have to dilute the dev a little more. The 532 II has the same emulsion as Fomatone MG, so you try looking some threads on lithing that.

Rich Ullsmith · Sep 5, 2008

Yeah, weaker/longer/higher/fresher than what?

With the MG classic, I use dilute LD20 (25ml A+ 25ml B + 1000ml H20, usually at least 3 liters) as high as my heat pad will get it (about 30c) with 5g sodium sulfite. If well-worked old brown is on hand, I substitute 1 liter of this for 1 liter of water, and no potassium bromide (initially). Long exposure times too, usually in excess of 2 minutes. Titrate up with the KBr, about a gram at a time until you get your results.

Even starting out so dilute, it seems like it takes 4 or 5 prints for this to really warm up. This lithing is really as much like cooking as it is photography.

Fintan · Sep 5, 2008

The developer was used at 1+19 and typical times were 5 to 8 minutes at 28 to 30 degrees celcius.

They are drying at the moment, I haven't selenium toned them.

Gary Holliday · Sep 5, 2008

Have a look at the colours and dilutions on these pages.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alt-digital/

mrtoml · Sep 5, 2008

Gary Holliday said:
Have a look at the colours and dilutions on these pages.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alt-digital/

These are my lith prints BTW.

If your prints haven't dried yet then I would wait until they have before deciding anything. I find that mine change colour on Fomatone paper considerably on drying. I use a print dryer which may make a difference. My Fomatone liths in Fotospeed look quite yellow/brown when wet, but dry to a salmon pink.

I have now switched to Moersch SE5 developer. It gives you a lot more control over the colours with the 2-4 extra additives.

I don't know if the nature 532 is the same as the Fomatone MG, but according to Moersch's spec sheet for Fomatone to shift away from yellow you can add sulphite and bromide to varying degrees and also adjust the amount of overexposure and lith dilution. The red option adds 10ml sulphite and 80ml bromide to a 1+12 dilution of a and b. I have also found that I can get browner tones with Fomatone by selenium toning and increasing the concentration of SE5. Whenever I used Fotospeed I would always get the very pink hues.

Rich Ullsmith · Sep 5, 2008

Mark, those are great examples for reference. This paper seems very predictable in this respect, as those hues are much like my own at those dilutions. Now tell us what order they came out of the pan!

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 5, 2008

Shorter times and stronger lith chemistry will weaken the salmon tone. Long exposure times will intensify the yellow/salmon highlights and make the shadows turn greenish. I quite like that for nature scenes, but looks weird on architecture and portraiture.
Hope that helps. The Moersch chemistry looks very interesting, but I can't afford it. I will be using AristaLith, which is less flexible, but as you play with temperature, dilution, agitation, and exposure, you can still control a lot of the outcome.
One more thing. It seems that the more exhausted the developer is, the more intense the colors become. Try using just one liter of solution some time, and watch the colors change as you deplete the active ingredients. It's pretty neat.
- Thomas

mrtoml · Sep 6, 2008

Rich Ullsmith said:
Mark, those are great examples for reference. This paper seems very predictable in this respect, as those hues are much like my own at those dilutions. Now tell us what order they came out of the pan!

I find that with stronger dilutions and a lot of old brown there is not much variation after the 2nd print with Fotospeed. Some people run a couple of blank exposed prints through the mix to get it stable. I also remix a new batch every 5 or 6 prints if I want more consistency.

I also find that the SE5 from Moersch is much more controllable because instead of unknowns like old brown, you can carefully add KBr in known quantities (or not). Although I guess part of the attraction is sometimes not knowing what you are going to get.

mrtoml · Sep 6, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The Moersch chemistry looks very interesting, but I can't afford it. I will be using AristaLith, which is less flexible, but as you play with temperature, dilution, agitation, and exposure, you can still control a lot of the outcome.
- Thomas

What I was suggesting is that you could mix your own sulphite and bromide additives (it is pretty cheap) and experiment with these as additives in any lith developer. Then you would have a pseudo-moersch lith kit.

Fintan · Sep 6, 2008

SE5 does indeed look very interesting, I hope to try it soon. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and chat. We should start a lith printing group.

Anyway I spent some more time in the darkroom today, I used a 1.14 concentration and used 1.4 of old brown. I also reduced the exposure time and developed for about 7 minutes. I got much closer to the tone I wanted. I'm so thrilled about it.

The prints are 10x10 and my scanner is only A4 so I can't show them. I must invest in an A3 scanner.

Thanks again.

Fintan

mrtoml · Sep 7, 2008

I agree that we should start a lith group. How does one go about it?

With respect to scanning big prints. I use an A4 scanner for mine. There is plenty of cheap/free stitching software. It's cheaper than an A3 scanner in any case and it doesn't take all that long for the odd print

Fintan · Sep 8, 2008

Mark, I've created a group here;
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The photo stitching looks like a good workaround. But I have seen a basic scanner on pixmania called a mustec and its £89 sterling so I might get that instead.

mrtoml · Sep 8, 2008

Thanks Fintan. That scanner looks like a steal. I didn't know you could get them so cheap.

keeds · Sep 8, 2008

Did some Lith printing with this paper and I really like it. I love the sheen and the base colour is much nicer than the normal fomatone mg. Didn't get very vivid colours but my development times were only around 5 mins so extra dilution and longer dev times required. Anyway I'm off to stock up on some of this paper.

Fintan · Sep 11, 2008

mrtoml said:
Thanks Fintan. That scanner looks like a steal. I didn't know you could get them so cheap.

Mine is ordered which will make it easier to explain my problems in future.

keeds · Sep 11, 2008

Silverprint are out of 9.5x12. My favourite size, good for 8"x8" prints. Nuts...

Tom Kershaw · Dec 26, 2008

What I was suggesting is that you could mix your own sulphite and bromide additives (it is pretty cheap) and experiment with these as additives in any lith developer. Then you would have a pseudo-moersch lith kit.

Have you compared Fotospeed plus additives to the Moersch kit?

Tom.

mrtoml · Dec 31, 2008

No. I only use the Moersch SE5 nowadays.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 13, 2009

To update this thread: Has anyone else made comparisons of the Moersch kit compared to LD20 plus additives?

Tom.

Angelo di Mango · Jul 17, 2009

To cut down this yellowish colour, I suggest you use a less diluted developper with shorter dev. times
Also selenium does help a lot , couple this with a cold thiourea toning or gold toning you will have enormous possibilities.
Last , it is true that fomatone changes a lot when drying so it is well worth waiting..

darkosaric · Jul 17, 2009

I have done some Lith with this paper also (and other foma papers), with "easy lith" kit from Morech. They have part A and part B, and you can change final color by adding more A or more B part. Maybe it is worth a try, it is pretty easy. (but I must say that I don't have much experience in this topic, beside this that I just described )

Lith printing - Fomatone Nature 532 II

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