LF Packard shutters

[noseoil]

Jim's thread about LF bokeh has raised a question I need an answer to, about the Packard shutters. I got a Nikon enlarging lens for my 8x10 (19") and have to use a lens cap for exposures. Don't want to pay three times the cost of the lens to have it mounted on a Copal 3, so the obvious choice is a Packard.

After reading a bit about the #6 syncro, I still have a question about its function. It seems that speeds can be regulated by the bulb's pressure, but I'm not sure how this works. Is it the duration, speed or some other manner of bulb manipulation in which the shutter can be regulated to change from a "normal" speed of 1/25 of a second to something different?

I'm thinking a #6 will work well for my application, but I will need speeds between 1/25 and T to get some shots. Thanks, tim

 

[Nick Zentena]

Supposedly if you squeeze the bulb with less force it takes a little longer for the shutter to open/close. Better people then me claim it can be done in a repeatable way. I haven't developed the knack but then I haven't put much effort into it.

#6 with flash contacts? So does that mean you'll be using a flash?

 

[jimgalli]

Hi Tim,
The Packard will have a hole near the top with a nail like shaft that goes in and out. When the shaft is "in" the shutter makes a complete cycle. This is supposed to be 1/20th sec but in my case I checked and it was more like 1/8, but never the less, repeatable.

When the shaft is "out" the shutter simply opens on pressure and closes on the reverse "suction". This is very easy to control with the bulb and if you have another shutter to listen to for several cycles like a nikon fm or even a late copal, you can cycle the bulb for 1/4 1/2 1 2+++ whatever. Much more than that and you'd just use the cap anyway.

Very simple, very useable.

 

[noseoil]

Jim, thanks for the explanation. Sounds so easy we can't possibly mess this up.

Nick, figured if I'm going to buy one, might as well have all the bells & whistles. tim

 

[smieglitz]

...I'm thinking a #6 will work well for my application, but I will need speeds between 1/25 and T to get some shots. Thanks, tim

If longer speeds would work you could use the bulb exposure in conjunction with neutral density filters to arrive at a workable combination. Shooting with my Verito lenses at f/4-5.6 and ISO 400 speed film outdoors, I'm using a 2.0 (- 6.67 stops) or 3.0 (-10 stops) ND filter depending on the sky conditions to get a managable time exposure.

Can't see a damn thing on the GG, but it works.

Joe

 

[noseoil]

Joe, what filter setup are you using? This is a rather large lens and I don't have anything close for ND filters. tim

 

[jjstafford]

Joe, what filter setup are you using? This is a rather large lens and I don't have anything close for ND filters. tim

If your work is in B&W, perhaps a contrast filter would suffice with speed 25 film. A good source for high quality, inexpensive government surplus filters is www.surplusshed.com They have filters such 4", 4.25", 5", 6.5", 8.5" and others. These are largely recon camera filters. Sometimes they hav big nd filters, too. Feel free to write them. Fred will probably answer.

If money is no issue... well, ask.

 

[medform-norm]

If your work is in B&W, perhaps a contrast filter would suffice with speed 25 film. A good source for high quality, inexpensive government surplus filters is www.surplusshed.com They have filters such 4", 4.25", 5", 6.5", 8.5" and others. These are largely recon camera filters. Sometimes they hav big nd filters, too. Feel free to write them. Fred will probably answer.

If money is no issue... well, ask.

Did you look into using old curtain shutters as well, such as Thornton Pickard made them? It's pretty easy to replace the shutter curtain (which is necessary in all but a few of these oldies) and you'd be left with a working shutter on which you can set the speed with a small wheel. They came in different size and can be used both behind or in front of the lens.

Regards, Norm

 

[David H. Bebbington]

For what it's worth, I discovered a product the other day which I didn't know existed and which fulfils a longstanding need - it is an adapter for Cokin XPro filters with 4 pinch screws instead of a threaded ring. Just right for several of my 8x10" lenses which have no filter thread or inch-size threads, and would be very useful with ND filters, since you can slide filters in and out much faster than unscrewing them.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Another option is a front mounted shutter like the "Luc" shutter. If you check the latest _View Camera_ magazine (May/June 2005), there a number of these pictured in Kerry Thalmann's article. I have one for the 360mm Heliar, and I just had Frank Marshman add flash sync to it, so I'll be using it as well with my other big lenses in Studio shutters, when I want to use them with strobes.

 

[smieglitz]

Joe, what filter setup are you using? This is a rather large lens and I don't have anything close for ND filters. tim

Tim,

I'm using 4" (100mm) square Kodak Wratten #96 Neutral Density gelatin filters which fit an old Kenko gelatin filter holder I've adapted to the smaller Verito. For the 18" Verito I've purchased a 6" (150mm) square ND filter which I haven't used yet in the field. I'll probably add a piece of steel to the Packard board and use small magnets to hold it in place, or I may just make a U-shaped brass frame to drop the filters in. The 6" filter was a special order from Calumet and was about $140 IIRC. Had to wait about 8 weeks to get it.

OTOH, about a year ago I won an auction for a group of old filters that were in a wooden frame with handle that resembled a ping-pong racket. I may just mount the big filter in something like that and hand-hold it during the exposure.

Joe

 

[smieglitz]

Another option is a front mounted shutter like the "Luc" shutter. If you check the latest _View Camera_ magazine (May/June 2005), there a number of these pictured in Kerry Thalmann's article. I have one for the 360mm Heliar, and I just had Frank Marshman add flash sync to it, so I'll be using it as well with my other big lenses in Studio shutters, when I want to use them with strobes.

Y'all should check out APUG member Bob Fowler's pages on front-mounting Packards and building shutter boxes for them:

http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/packard1.htm

http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/packard2.htm

I have done both. I made a front mount for the 18" Verito and can quickly remove the shutter to mount it internally in a couple other cameras.

Using his shutter box as inspiration, I made one that allows the use of heavier, larger diameter lenses on my Deardorff Special. I'm limited to 5 1/2" wide now only because I wanted to retain front tilt, but that is a step up from the restrictive 4 1/2" lensboard. The external shutter box allows lenses with 3 1/2" diameter rear elements to be used. In contrast, the largest Packard that will fit inside the camera is 4" square with a maximum 2" diameter hole.

I also machined a 1/8" thick brass mounting plate for the rear of the box and have the shutter box mounted to it via machine bolts so now I don't have to worry about mounting those heavier lenses (as long as the retaining strips on the camera board hold up.) I also added a sync connection from some audio jack parts I purchased at Radio Shack. It's nice to be able to use these old barrel lenses with a couple of shutter speeds and studio strobes.

The next one I build will have an iris diaphragm mount incorporated on it so I'll be able to use lenses lacking mounting flanges.

Joe

 

[MattCarey]

OK--here is a totally Rube Goldberg idea. But, it will work for lenses <2" diameter. This is a take-off of the Bob Fowler shutter box.

1) take a MF SLR body--I am thinking of a Kiev88, but others with a focal plane shutter should work.

2) Disable or remove the mirror. Black out the screen.

3) make a foam donut that will fit the OD of the lens you want to use, and the ID of the lens mount of the SLR.

4) fix the SLR to the lens using the donut. Basically, pass the LF lens through the lens mount of the SLR and secure with the foam donut.

5) If I have described the idea in my head correctly, you now have a shutter in front of your LF Lens--the focal plane shutter of the SLR. You can set the shutter speed using the SLR body. You also get X-sync for free.

So, to summarize, use a MF SLR body as your shutter box. A Kiev88 should work. KEH has an "as-is" Bronica S2 with bad advance and a cracked screen for $39. I don't know the S2 that well, but it might work. Could be heavy, though.

Matt

 

[noseoil]

Joe, Matt, David, thanks for the brain-storming. Anyone else who is a free thinker and can add suggestions for this type of solution, please, have at it. Still open to any and all ideas on using these older lenses and shutter mounts or installations. Since I haven't made a decision yet (spent the money), I'm still looking at options.

I know, the best solution is still an 8x10 Speed Graphic, but for now I don't have one and don't want to build one with a window-blind shutter. tim

 

[Dan Fromm]

Matt, interesting idea. Similar in concept to the suggestion, I think by Jim Galli, to use a Thornton Pickard roller blind shutter in front of the lens.

Good concept that suffers from practical problems of implementation. T-P auxiliary shutters, unlike T-P focal plane shutters, aren't very big. 6x6 SLRs also aren't very big. With either mechanical vignetting is a real problem.

I hate to see old Graphics demolished, but the idea would work better with a 4x5 Graphic body in front of the lens or, for that matter, immediately behind it. Use an Anny to get timed speeds below 1/30.

I'm doing something conceptually similar that looks very different and that, alas, probably can't be scaled up to 8x10. I shoot 2x3, have a pair of short little 2x3 Graphics. Century and Speed, to be exact. I have some non-tele lenses in barrel longer than 300 mm that I want to use. Not practical on either camera.

I just accepted SKGrimes' estimate, i.e., told them to do the work, for making bracketry to hold my two cameras front to back. The bracketry includes a light-tight coupler that fits the front camera's Graflok back and the rear camera's front standard.

Nice idea, but the lenses are in barrel and the rear camera is a Pacemaker Speed, slowest timed shutter speed 1/30. However, front-mounting the long lenses on a #1 is practical and if my simple geometrical model is correct the limiting bit that will cause mechanical vignetting when shooting straight ahead is the rear camera's front standard, not the #1 just behind the lens. We'll know soon for sure enough; FWIW, the crude proof-of-concept prototype I built m'self to test the model worked.

I've thought through an 8x10 version, with a 20" lens in front of a shutter on the camera's lens board, and I'm not sure it works even with an Alphax/Betax/Ilex #5. The test is whether shutter's diameter wide open/film's diagonal is greater than (distance from lens' exit pupil to shutter)/(distance from shutter to film plane). Might work, but I'm not at all sure. Don't have the bits to take measurements from.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[veriwide]

I have had very good experience with a packard shutter on my 5x7 Korona. Testing let me be confident that a firm squeeze of the bulb is about 1/30th, and I meter to that then set the f~stop.

If yoou are looking for times between instant and B, you could get an inline air valve. By adjusting the air flow you will limit the amount of air going through the tube, thus lowering the speed of opperation of the shutter. Testing will give you your shutter speeds at different valve settings.

I am woking a more high tech shutter system for my 8x10 deardorff. I came across a nonfunctioning older Sinar copal shutterfor $30. I am somewhat mechanically inclined so I opened it up, saw what parts were moving, not moving, moving too slowly, then added some lubrication to this gear and that spring, and it works perfectly from 1/60 to 8 sec. I am now working on a box that will fit the fron of the dorff, then I will mount my barrel lenses on Sinar boards.

Patrick

 

[MattCarey]

I hate to see old Graphics demolished, but the idea would work better with a 4x5 Graphic body in front of the lens or, for that matter, immediately behind it. Use an Anny to get timed speeds below 1/30.

I'm doing something conceptually similar that looks very different and that, alas, probably can't be scaled up to 8x10. I shoot 2x3, have a pair of short little 2x3 Graphics. Century and Speed, to be exact. I have some non-tele lenses in barrel longer than 300 mm that I want to use. Not practical on either camera.

I just accepted SKGrimes' estimate, i.e., told them to do the work, for making bracketry to hold my two cameras front to back. The bracketry includes a light-tight coupler that fits the front camera's Graflok back and the rear camera's front standard.

Right after I made the post, I thought of using a speed graphic body instead of the SLR...But I am too attached to speeds!

Your tandem system sounds very interesting. Please post a picture when it gets going. Does this work out cheaper than, say, a 4x5 speed with a reducing back and a bellows extension? Is a bellows extension even feasible for such long lenses?

I have another idea for a packard-like shutter with reprodicible speeds (<1/100s) and sync. I'll post something if/when I can get some working model.

Matt

 

[Dan Fromm]

Matt, I went for a long (sort of) tandem camera made from two short cameras instead of getting a long camera because the bracketry needed is pretty light and compact and I already carry too much gear. In many ways a long 4x5 camera with a 2x3 roll holder is a more elegant less restrictive solution to the problem of shooting 2x3 with long lenses. But as is, 35 mm kit, 2x3 kit, tripods, and assorted bulky gadgets fill half of my car's trunk. A larger car is not an option. This time compact but inelegant wins.

Cost? Not sure. I certainly did it the expensive way, having SKGrimes drill three holes in a piece of T-slotted aluminum extrusion and three more in a piece of wood molding. Six holes cost $90. But I don't trust myself to drill plumb holes in exactly the right place, and for this application they have to be plumb and located pretty accurately. The coupler is based on a lens board and a film pack adapter; both have to be drilled and a tube to go between has to be made. I haven't got the final bill yet, but I expect the bracketry will all cost less than, say, a 4x5 Kodak or the Calumet version and a 4x5 Adapt-A-Roll 620 or 2x3 C2 roll holder.

Cheers,

Dan