Large Format - What should I look into?

I'm in a phase of trying to piece together a complete photographic outfit that will hopefully last me for the rest of my life. (I'm also crazy.) My favorite parts of this wonderful hobby of ours contain fast work (street, I'm an aspiring photojournalist at the moment), and much, much slower work...Landscapes, cityscapes, architecture, etc. But also still-lives, and macro shots of still subjects. Some portraiture too, but I'm not really that much of a fan of portraiture. I've already pretty much settled on what I'm going to do for fast photography (Ikon ZM + CV 35/1.2), so I'm looking for the right LF outfit for me.

I want a LF field camera that is light, and can fold up small. I also want as many movements that are useful/possible. I'm not quite sure what all of those are yet, though. I don't really care about tele lenses, and I probably won't go past wide lenses.

I was thinking something like this for 4x5, probably used as $2,500 is quite a bit of money for me. What would be comparable for 8x10? Can I do macro with this lens?

Would this camera be suitable? It seems to have the movements I want, and it seems like an extremely light camera, but it doesn't seem to support ultra-wide focal lengths: "Minimum Extension 3.16" (80.3mm) with flat lens board"

I really want a light camera that I can lug around with me on hikes and easily protect. I'm not against buying used, but I really want a camera that will last me a long, long time. As I said, I'm trying to "finish" my camera outfit (although I'm sure I'll always add lenses and whatnot into my lineup). I would probably be getting a LF outfit this summer (birthday + lots of relatives + job = $), or the beginning of 2010.

Also, what are the differences between the various shutters I seem to see floating around?

I was also wondering, what about 8x10? Would it be more worth it to invest in an 8x10 camera?

Do I need a loupe to focus? What other kinds of accessories would I need?

Thank you to everyone and APUG. This site has given me a wealth of information that has helped me improve my photography. (Which reminds me, I still have about 20 rolls of 35mm I need to get developed and scanned.)

Too many questions for one post! Let me suggest that you go over to largeformatphotography.info and peruse the introductory articles there. They cover pretty much everything you asked.

Short answer: what you need to understand are things like bellows length required for infinity and 1:1 focus, image circle at say f/22 and infinity focus. How the image circle constrains the available movements. And of course you need to decide whether your style is better suited to a field or to a rail camera. My advice is to work with an LFer or borrow some LF gear and get a hands-on intro to these issues, it really won't take you long at all to master (~6-10 concentrated hours).

There are many options in LF, that's the whole point... virtually unlimited flexibility. But that also means you have to answer more questions for yourself, in terms of technique and gear.

You will love LF.

P.S. Personally I like 5x7 best and don't do as much 8x10 as I thought I might. Regarding formats, I think you have to ask yourself whether you plan to enlarge and/or make contacts, and what films you'd like to use... colour? b&w? which format(s)?. In other words, ask yourself what you want to produce, and that will guide you to the right equipment for you. Once you can be more specific about what you want to do, then people can advise you in a more concrete way.

Velvia, Astia, Ilford Delta (reversal processed. I LOVE POSITIVES!)...Maybe some others. High quality scans (Epson V-750, unless there is a better scanner that can handle LF and doesn't cost $20,000) and massive enlargements via lightjet. I also want to print optically, but I'll probably wait until college to attempt that. (If I were to buy an enlarger, I would want a full outfit that could handel 8x10 down to half-frame 35mm, and I don't have the ceiling height or money to get one of those.)

Thanks, I will read lfpf and learn of LF. I think a field camera is for me, as I'm not the kind of photog to really use a studio at all...And I've been under the impression that monorails are expensive, heavy, and hard to backpack.

Well, to be honest, if you are shooting chromes or supersmooth films like the deltas and tmax then 4x5 should more than cut it... medium format may be plenty for your needs. IMHO a drummed transparency from a mamiya 6 easily goes, very credibly, to 24". You might want to put that in your pipe and smoke it, because there are quite a few more roll films available than sheet films, and there are also some fabulous compact LF cameras, with ample movements, shooting to 4x5 and smaller, and rollfilm backs.

Rollfilm is a great way for a beginner to build up confidence required to take fewer exposures when you use sheet. The only really tricky bit in LF, IMHO, is metering. Issues like bellows factor and falloff come in, not to mention reciprocity because the LF lenses we use are pretty slow compared to 35mm, and the available LF films are also pretty slow (no! I am not complaining!but...). Consider that a lot of LFers are shooting at ~ISO 100, f/22 or something like that... so metering is the trickiest thing faced when new to LF, in my opinion.

"I want a LF field camera that is light, and can fold up small. I also want as many movements that are useful/possible. I'm not quite sure what all of those are yet, though. I don't really care about tele lenses, and I probably won't go past wide lenses."

Have you decided this because you think it is necessary in order to achieve the exploration of your desired concepts...or just because? How is your work limited by your equipment at this time? Are you sure equipment is the key? Have you considered 6x7 as a preliminary trial?

You really have to just shoot more than you need to plan what equipment to buy. If you go out and do stuff a lot, the answers as to what you need for the way you work will become apparent.

If you must must must try large format, I would suggest that anyone simply looking to get that huge negative area just get a beater Crown Graphic for a starter rig, and go from there. They are not perfect, but nothing is. You can do a lot with them for very little investment.

Honestly, if you are an aspiring photojournalist, get a digital SLR system as your main investment before you buy anything else. Anything will do. Get a $250 10D. Just start learning a major modern digital SLR system straight away. Just do it, and do not think twice about it. Anything else is folly, if that's what you really want to do. There is no way around that. You will not be able to get a job without being able to work the same way and at the same speed as others in the field. If you are ever a staffer, you are going to be issued your gear and be expected to know how to use it, not bring your rangefinder and your Speed Graphic. The other film stuff will have to be for personal enjoyment alone, unless you have a lot of clout some day, and plenty of time to work on a project. Priorities are priorities if you have a very strong aspiration like that.

To be real honest... This is the latest forum you have barged into wanting information about stuff you will never buy.

APUG seems to be filled with new people who want to post because there is a willing audience that thinks their viewpoint is important, while the poster just wants an audience.

What ULF did you buy? What MF did you explore? What super 135 system did you not only purchase but master and produce Pulitzer prize winners with?

Yes, I have looked at your posting history and I recommend anyone who thinks about answering do the same.

I made a point about posters who make one post and then go away with no feedback on the information so freely shared. Right now, I think I prefer that kind of poster.


Shakes head.



tim in san jose

autumnjazz

in the end it isn't about a complete system, it's about making images with the camera/s you have.
there are lots of people who have a camera from every format you can think of.
they think think this "stuff" will help them as a photographers - be more creative, more spontaneous, more " ---- " ...
it doesn't and it can't, and it won't.
---- there is no silver bullet, no perfect camera for backpacking, or landscape or portraits, or anything else.
... except the one you have,
use your camera, and use it often, and it will be YOUR silver bullet, see with it, and let it see for you.

(that all said, you might consider getting a 4x5 box camera like a delmar or a zero image.
they are not very expensive if you can find one.

they are simple boxes that will give you the ability to see what large format
film is all about. )

good luck ...

john

Large Format - What should I look into?

You look into the ground glass. Everybody else should look into the lens.

AutumnJazz

The best advice I can give you is to buy a book on the subject of large format photography. One of the better ones is View Camera Technique by Leslie Stroebel. Used ones can usually be had for very modest prices. After some studying you will have a good knowledge base and be able to make an informed purchase. And, best of all, you will be able to make the most of your camera.

AutumnJazz said:

I was thinking something like this for 4x5, probably used as $2,500 is quite a bit of money for me. What would be comparable for 8x10?

Click to expand...

150mm would be comparable in 8x10. It is quite wide. I use a 210mm which has the same angle of view as a 28mm on 35mm camera and this is too wide for many subjects.

Would this camera be suitable? It seems to have the movements I want, and it seems like an extremely light camera, but it doesn't seem to support ultra-wide focal lengths: "Minimum Extension 3.16" (80.3mm) with flat lens board"

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that camera.

Also, what are the differences between the various shutters I seem to see floating around?

Click to expand...

Packard shutters are for barrel lenses and process lenses (those without a shutter). Usually when you buy a lens it will come with an appropriate leaf shutter from the manufacture.

I was also wondering, what about 8x10? Would it be more worth it to invest in an 8x10 camera?

Click to expand...

"Worth" and "invest" probably don't make much sense if this is a hobby for you. But, by all means 8x10 would be a good idea. Depending on your eyesight, you should be able to see the results of your camera movements without a magnifier. It's easer to know when things are right or wrong, compared to the smaller 4x5 and 6x9cm cameras.

Do I need a loupe to focus? What other kinds of accessories would I need?

Click to expand...

I'm profoundly nearsighted so I don't use a loupe for 8x10 and 4x5, but if your 'normal' or have presbyopia you may need to use one.

Just get a camera that looks like a camera you'll want to use. Then use it. A lot. If you "hold out" for a perfect camera you'll never get the chance to perfect your photography ('cause there just ain't a perfect camera!)

Find a local LFr and go shooting with him/her. Read. Try. The answers to the questions you seek can only be the right answers for you, and only you can provide them. I haven't spent $2500 on my entire 4x5 and 8x10 systems combined. People like my photographs, and the prints sell. Equipment is the least of it.

2F/2F said:

"I want a LF field camera that is light, and can fold up small. I also want as many movements that are useful/possible. I'm not quite sure what all of those are yet, though. I don't really care about tele lenses, and I probably won't go past wide lenses."

Have you decided this because you think it is necessary in order to achieve the exploration of your desired concepts...or just because? How is your work limited by your equipment at this time? Are you sure equipment is the key? Have you considered 6x7 as a preliminary trial?

You really have to just shoot more than you need to plan what equipment to buy. If you go out and do stuff a lot, the answers as to what you need for the way you work will become apparent.

If you must must must try large format, I would suggest that anyone simply looking to get that huge negative area just get a beater Crown Graphic for a starter rig, and go from there. They are not perfect, but nothing is. You can do a lot with them for very little investment.

Honestly, if you are an aspiring photojournalist, get a digital SLR system as your main investment before you buy anything else. Anything will do. Get a $250 10D. Just start learning a major modern digital SLR system straight away. Just do it, and do not think twice about it. Anything else is folly, if that's what you really want to do. There is no way around that. You will not be able to get a job without being able to work the same way and at the same speed as others in the field. If you are ever a staffer, you are going to be issued your gear and be expected to know how to use it, not bring your rangefinder and your Speed Graphic. The other film stuff will have to be for personal enjoyment alone, unless you have a lot of clout some day, and plenty of time to work on a project. Priorities are priorities if you have a very strong aspiration like that.

Click to expand...

I find myself wanting the movements (tilt and shift, that is. I haven't seen what the other movements can do) of LF to either control DoF or fix distortion. I also want a larger negative for landscapes.

And to be honest, a few people have pretty much talked me out of MF.

I know how to use the Canon and Nikon (D)SLR systems pretty well. I still have much to learn, but I find their size and weight inhibiting for what I like to do.

k_jupiter said:

To be real honest... This is the latest forum you have barged into wanting information about stuff you will never buy.

APUG seems to be filled with new people who want to post because there is a willing audience that thinks their viewpoint is important, while the poster just wants an audience.

What ULF did you buy? What MF did you explore? What super 135 system did you not only purchase but master and produce Pulitzer prize winners with?

Yes, I have looked at your posting history and I recommend anyone who thinks about answering do the same.

I made a point about posters who make one post and then go away with no feedback on the information so freely shared. Right now, I think I prefer that kind of poster.


Shakes head.



tim in san jose

Click to expand...

God forbid I ask a question on an online forum trying to find the right method(s) for me so that I can best achieve my photographic vision. I don't know why you seem to have so much against me, I just want to learn. I want to have options. I thought APUG existed so that people could share their experiences, knowledge, opinions, and to ask questions.

And to be honest, I've wanted a LF outfit since I first shot with one when I was nine years old.

jnanian said:

autumnjazz

in the end it isn't about a complete system, it's about making images with the camera/s you have.
there are lots of people who have a camera from every format you can think of.
they think think this "stuff" will help them as a photographers - be more creative, more spontaneous, more " ---- " ...
it doesn't and it can't, and it won't.
---- there is no silver bullet, no perfect camera for backpacking, or landscape or portraits, or anything else.
... except the one you have,
use your camera, and use it often, and it will be YOUR silver bullet, see with it, and let it see for you.

(that all said, you might consider getting a 4x5 box camera like a delmar or a zero image.
they are not very expensive if you can find one.

they are simple boxes that will give you the ability to see what large format
film is all about. )

good luck ...

john

Click to expand...

Thanks. I've always used what was avalable to me. First it was a handed-down K1000 (who's meter is currently broken ), and now it is a Nikon F100.

I would probably just troll craigslist or ebay and get an old speed graphic for LF, but I really want to find a good new or used outfit that will last me a long time.

AutumnJazz

The best advice I can give you is to buy a book on the subject of large format photography. One of the better ones is View Camera Technique by Leslie Stroebel. Used ones can usually be had for very modest prices. After some studying you will have a good knowledge base and be able to make an informed purchase. And, best of all, you will be able to make the most of your camera.

Click to expand...

I do have Ansel Adams' three books, but I will be sure to also look into that one.

ic-racer said:

150mm would be comparable in 8x10. It is quite wide. I use a 210mm which has the same angle of view as a 28mm on 35mm camera and this is too wide for many subjects.





Nothing wrong with that camera.




Packard shutters are for barrel lenses and process lenses (those without a shutter). Usually when you buy a lens it will come with an appropriate leaf shutter from the manufacture.



"Worth" and "invest" probably don't make much sense if this is a hobby for you. But, by all means 8x10 would be a good idea. Depending on your eyesight, you should be able to see the results of your camera movements without a magnifier. It's easer to know when things are right or wrong, compared to the smaller 4x5 and 6x9cm cameras.



I'm profoundly nearsighted so I don't use a loupe for 8x10 and 4x5, but if your 'normal' or have presbyopia you may need to use one.

Click to expand...

That camera would be fine with a 72mm lens? I think for now I'll stick with 4x5. I don't plan to enlarge to wall-sized prints so I would probably never be able to tell the difference.

Just get a camera that looks like a camera you'll want to use. Then use it. A lot. If you "hold out" for a perfect camera you'll never get the chance to perfect your photography ('cause there just ain't a perfect camera!)

Click to expand...

It's not really about holding out, but saving up. I just want to gauge how much I will spend so I can save it. I'm not looking for the perfect camera, I just want the tools to help me achieve my photography in the best way for me. (Was that terrible english on my part?)

Find a local LFr and go shooting with him/her. Read. Try. The answers to the questions you seek can only be the right answers for you, and only you can provide them. I haven't spent $2500 on my entire 4x5 and 8x10 systems combined. People like my photographs, and the prints sell. Equipment is the least of it.

Click to expand...

Believe, I know that cameras and lenses and whatnot are just tools. I still like to research equipment so that I don't spend money on something I don't need, or overspend. As I said, I'll probably end up going for a used camera, lens, and whatnot but bhphotovideo and Schnider's site are more reliable sources of specs than an ebay or craigslist posting.

AutumnJazz said:

God forbid I ask a question on an online forum trying to find the right method(s) for me so that I can best achieve my photographic vision. I don't know why you seem to have so much against me, I just want to learn. I want to have options. I thought APUG existed so that people could share their experiences, knowledge, opinions, and to ask questions.

And to be honest, I've wanted a LF outfit since I first shot with one when I was nine years old.

Click to expand...

You are correct. I am sorry. I was in a bad mood last night. This is the third or fourth forum you have asked the same type questions in, perhaps you just haven't decided what you want to shoot yet.

There is always the ignore button I suppose.

Thank Gawd we don't have a 110 forum. (Who is this Gawd guy anyway?)

tim in san jose

Third. First I thought I may want to go between 35mm and LF, and looked into MF. Then I decided it wasn't for me. Then I decided I wanted a low-key rangefinder setup, which I'm planning on getting in January. I've wanted to get into LF for a long, long time, but I don't know where to start so I posted here.

For a 4x5 system, check into a Shen Hao, a pretty good camera for the money. New it should last you quite a long time.
Wooden field cameras usually have more movements than metal field cameras, and you are looking for plenty of movements. For lenses a good kit may include a 90mm, 150mm, 210mm or 300mm. A 75mm may not give you the type of movements you might want unless you get a bag bellows.
We have a pretty active group of APUGers up here in Noo Inglin and many of shoot LF. Also check out the NELFPC's Cancer Benefit: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
There is a lot going on during that weekend and many of the usual suspects are very helpful to future LFers.
Good luck with your quest and I hope to see you some day at some New England gathering.

gene

AutumnJazz said:

It's not really about holding out, but saving up. I just want to gauge how much I will spend so I can save it. I'm not looking for the perfect camera, I just want the tools to help me achieve my photography in the best way for me. (Was that terrible english on my part?)

Click to expand...

And now for a less glib answer on my part (this is going to ramble a bit and I don't feel like doing much editing)

Put your hands on a copy of Steve Simmon's "The View Camera". New or used, a good bargin. Not the biggest book, and maybe not the best book but definately a good book that you will reference a few times duing your kit-building stage.

As far as saving up, you can do very well with $500 if you are patient. In addition to the camera, a lens (you could go pinhole for a while if it came down to serious cash shortage), a couple of film holders (minmum of 4 I should think) a tripod & head, cable release (depends a bit on the lens), dark cloth and developing kit. And don't forget the film! Seriously, I think you can get a functioning (user) 4x5 plus lens for less than $350. Spend the rest on the accessories. Almost forgot the lightmeter but you could use a 35mm or DSLR for that. Or Sunny-16 it for a while. Nuts, forgot a bag to carry it all in the field. The list just goes on, doesn't it?

I got started for under $500 (since spent a bit more...). The only new equipment I've purchased have been some trays, the tripod (Bogen 3221 with 3 way pan head, no longer a production model) and a DarkJacket dark cloth. for some time I survived with a no-name aluminum tripod and an old bath towel.

You talk of wanting lots of movements. Others may disagree you don't need all that much. While I have a couple of monrail camera with enough movement to nearly point the lens back at me, I seldom need more than a little front (rear) rise and some small tilt/swing for foreground/background DOF issues. This is mainly working from about 15 feet and out. If you plan a lot of close up or table-top stuff, you may need much more movement in the camera.

Back to the extra equipment for a moment. Film holders are important. 4x5 holders are relatively cheap. 5x7 and 8x10 are somewhat more expensive. I think I've averaged about $10 for the 4x5s and about $35 for 8x10s. That has meant a few dogs that needed cleaning and repair. You can get very nice, even new 8x10 holders for $70 (eBay luck).

Film developing equipment can be expensive or cheap. Open trays in the dark are pretty cheap. You can also make your own pseudo-BTZS tubes and work in room light. Or you can get a daylight tank or system like a Jobo or Bessler tubes or real BTZS tubes. Personally, I think everybody should do at least some developing with open trays. Cheapest way to start and a good fall-back method if you want to get into Pyro developers that aren't rotary processing friendly.

Film isn't cheap either. 4x5 is pretty much the bargin size. But 8x10 can be had a decent prices if you shop around. Pick a brand and speed and stick with it for at least 50 sheets. Or you can go less expensive and use some RC photo paper or Arista APHS until you get your feet under you. I'd recommend using the RC paper first as you can practice loading holders under safelight, test for light leaks in holders and camera bellows as well as practice focusing and movements and tray developing for very short money.

See, I told you. Long and rambling.

OK. So the answer is:

A Deardorff V8 with a 210 WA and either a 300mm or a 450mm lens, depending on what you want to shoot. Get the reducing backs so you can shoot 5x7 ( a wonderful format) and 4x5 with the camera also.

You will NEVER own another camera. (Unless it's a Crown Graphic to take out into the woods with you).

To be real honest, you will never need another camera and this one will outlast you with proper care.


tim in san jose

As I said, landscapes, cityscapes, architecture, portraiture, still lives, macro (is macro possible?). I assume WA means wide angle, correct? Won't it end up being somewhat of a tele lens if I were to use the reducing backs?

Thanks.

How much do they go for? There is one on ebay at the moment. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Deardor...39:1|66:2|65:12|240:1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 I suppose I'll see how much it goes for when it ends.

AutumnJazz said:

As I said, landscapes, cityscapes, architecture, portraiture, still lives, macro (is macro possible?). I assume WA means wide angle, correct? Won't it end up being somewhat of a tele lens if I were to use the reducing backs?

Thanks.

How much do they go for? There is one on ebay at the moment. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Deardor...39:1|66:2|65:12|240:1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 I suppose I'll see how much it goes for when it ends.

Click to expand...

Being the bottom feeder I am.. I wait till I get the price I want.
I picked up an 8x10 with two lens 191mm and 12" Ektars in Shutter, 4x5 back, 8x10 back, couple of 8x10 holders, some odds and ends with original well built case for $1570. Camera needs nothing, one shutter needed a Clean, lube, and adjust. I found a 5x7 back for under 200 bucks. Now that is a system.

The 191 lens makes a great portrait lens for 4x5 as well as a WA for the 8x10, the 12" makes a great portrait lens for 5x7. I have a 150/6.3 Fuji from my photo school days that covers 5x7 WA. and 4x5 normal. I have a 180/4.5 Tessar that makes a good normal 5x7 lens and is pretty sharp.

The cool part is... First time under the hood, every control is where you expect it to be. Unlike my older B&J 5x7s, it actually was designed for people, not orangutans.


BTW - That Camera... No. That bottom is a cobbled on replacement. It has no 8x10 back. That would be a major project. For that kind of money, a Horseman 8x10 would be a better deal.

tim in san jose

AutumnJazz said:

I assume WA means wide angle, correct? Won't it end up being somewhat of a tele lens if I were to use the reducing backs?

Click to expand...

The terms wide-angle and telephoto describes the characteristics, or construction of a given lens. Wide-angle lenses have greater covering power than normal lenses of equal focal length, and tele lenses have shorter lens to film distance than a normal lens of the same focal length.

But I understand what you mean, and you are correct in your assumption.

AutumnJazz said:

Third. First I thought I may want to go between 35mm and LF, and looked into MF. Then I decided it wasn't for me. Then I decided I wanted a low-key rangefinder setup, which I'm planning on getting in January. I've wanted to get into LF for a long, long time, but I don't know where to start so I posted here.

Click to expand...

As said earlier by another poster, get yourself a cheap Speed Graphic with lens and a couple of filmholders and get into the feeling of using a view camera.

It's the only possible way to get to know the limits and possibilities of a camera system and focal lenght.
After that, invest into a setup that suits your needs.


G

Have a look at this interview with Kim Weston. He's got a few cameras, but notice the one sitting behind him for most of the interview--

Dead Link Removed

It's some kind of klunker B&J Orbit or Kodak or Calumet monorail or something that you could buy today for under $250--but for what he does (figure studies in the studio and in nature mainly), it's really all he needs. There's also an 8x10" Sinar under the darkcloth on the studio stand, which is a pretty fancy camera, but it doesn't offer much that couldn't be done with something much simpler and less expensive (not to mention a virtually identical camera of the previous model, which can be had for about 1/10 the price of a new one).

Different cameras offer different conveniences for different purposes, and what you choose is largely a matter of taste and personal temperament. Look at the articles at lfphoto.info about getting started in LF and read the camera reviews, and pick something attractive that suits your budget, and then once you've exposed and printed a few hundred sheets of film, you'll know what you really want

For what it's worth, I jumped into LF 3 years ago with a Shen Hao 4x5 intro kit from Badger Graphic (these retail for about $1400 these days).

I'd never seen anyone here using any large format, and only seen one person since I bought mine, so I was a little apprehensive about buying second hand stuff and thought I couldn't really go wrong with new stuff. The kit's got everything. Really good camera, 150mm lens, a couple of film holders and a cable release. All you'll need is a black old t shirt for a darkcloth, maybe a loupe (I just use the cheap Toyo and it's absolutely fine for my eyes) and some film and you'll be away laughing.

I'm over the moon I decided to go new. It was a bit of a gamble, but it's such a beautiful camera, a joy to use and takes such breathtaking photos. I'm looking at adding a used 90mm lens to this kit now and I'll be sorted for a long time once I get one. Like you, all I shoot with it is landscapes mostly, but also some stiff life and a little bit of macro work with an enlarging lens mounted backwards.

Just another point of view.

autumnjazz -

it's good to see you are doing your homework

don't forget you can always buy something that isn't
the best, and have good lenses for it,
and when you find a better camera down the road,
after you use the 1st one and use it, and use it
and outgrow it ...
apug is always here, and there are always people to buy
cameras in the classifed section ..
as a matter of fact, there are a few 8x10s and a 5x7 with a convertible lens!!
in there now

john
_____