Kurare R-1130 polymer for cyanotype on glass

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by altphotoproducts, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. altphotoproducts

    altphotoproducts Advertiser Advertiser

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    Has anyone tried using Kurare R-1130 polymer (Bostick & Sullivan has it) instead of gelatine for cyanotype on glass?
     
  2. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Looks like it's hydrophobic. See here... It says "water resistant" which doesn't sound nice for our emulsions. What for B&S lists this material? You better ask them before committing...

    Regards,
    Loris.

    EDIT: Seems like a nice material for dichromate processes though; it says it's crosslinkable, sounds much like Mowiol 4-88 (albeit with a higher hydrolysis ratio 98-99, Mowiol is 88...), some use Mowiol as a gum replacement, perhaps this material could be used the same way?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2012
  3. Mark Fisher

    Mark Fisher Subscriber

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    FYI -- water resistant doesn't mean hydrophobic. It may or may not. Glass is pretty hydrophyllic but is definitely water proof! A thin coat of wax is very hydrophobic and not all that water resistant. Call Bostick and ask them. They are friendly folk.

    Mark
     
  4. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    See

    (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

    The proper name is Kuraray Poval Dead Link Removed

    Crudely put, the stuff is Elmer's Glue and Silane; but don't try and make it yourself from these two ingredients...

    Google for "Kuraray" and other catch words: apug, cyanotype, photographic ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2012
  5. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Great info Nicholas, I should have missed that one! Good to know about this material, looks very promising...

    Regards,
    Loris.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    altphotoproducts

    altphotoproducts Advertiser Advertiser

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    Kuraray R-1130

    Hi Nicholas,

    Thank you very much. Mea culpa. It is Kuraray Poval R-1130. I am familiar with the information you suggested. Two or three years ago those guys (DPvisions and wildbillbugman) used Kuraray R-1110 that is not manufactured any more. They also mentioned that Bostick & Sullivan would sell it. At Kuraray they told me that R-1130 is the latest version. At B&S they did order it (R-1130) two or three years ago but forgot about it. They sent me a sample. By now they should have it on their site.
    I followed those guys instructions , made 5% aqueous solution, coated the glass, baked at 225 degrees F, but cayanotype emulsion would not stick. That's why
    I am asking if anyone else tried it instead of gelatin.
     
  7. DPVisions

    DPVisions Member

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    I have been able to print cyanotype images on glass using several type of Polyvinyl Alcohol(PVOH). I have used the Poval R-1130 as a base subbing which provides tenacious adhesion to glass and a much more suitable interface for other PVOH grades that do not have silane in them. Once the intial R-1130 is dry and hard I apply another coating of Kuraray Mowiol 4-88, boric acid, and a fumed alpha alumina dispersion. This second coating readily accepts and holds a cyanotype coating much better than a plain PVOH coating.

    I am still working on the formulation that provides a consistent reliable print, some issues of very fine cracking/crazing of the coating occurs which I am hoping to fix and tweaking ration of the mixture to best optimize. Also working out ways to get a clean consistent coating which is necessary for consistency in image density.

    Cheers,
    David
     
  8. OP
    OP
    altphotoproducts

    altphotoproducts Advertiser Advertiser

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    cyanotype on glass

    Dear David,

    My task was to put cyanotype image on glass and protect it from elements and damage. First, I thought of using gelatin as a substrate (sand or etch glass if
    necessary) and sandwich with another piece of glass. Then I came across your experiment with Kuraray R-1110 and thought it would make my life much easier: coat glass with polymer, bake it, coat with cyanotype emulsion, expose, process, dry, put another coat of polymer, bake it and get a reasonably well protected image on glass.
    Kuraray R-1130 is a totally different beast. It is reactivity with inorganic substances that make it water resistant. I'll be very much obliged if you could share
    some specifics of you experience.

    Best regards,

    Victor altphotoproducts@gmail.com
     
  9. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Victor, if you plan to seal the cyanotype to protect it physically, mind that it needs a small supply of oxygen to regenerate from the damaging effect (fading) due UV exposure, or has to be perfectly protected from UV light. I mean the seal has to be permeable to air, or perfectly protect the image from UV light. If not, you MAY loose the image (or experience unacceptable levels of fading) in the long term, due cumulative effect of UV light to the image - if it wasn't given the chance to repair itself... Framed cyanotypes normally have fading / regeneration cycles; some fading occurs when the image is subjected to UV light, then the image partly regenerates in the dark by the action of oxygen trapped inside the frame.

    Regards,
    Loris.
     
  10. DPVisions

    DPVisions Member

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    Victor, when I get back in town next week I will collect up my notes and post some formulations that I have had success with. Also are you interested in having the cyanotype image on a transparent sheet of glass or can the support be opaque?

    Cheers,
    David
     
  11. OP
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    altphotoproducts

    altphotoproducts Advertiser Advertiser

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    Kuraray R-1130

    Hi David,

    It must be transparent or sanded (if necessary).

    Thank you very much,

    Victor

    P.S. Tried to send email to your site unsuccessfully two times.
     
  12. OP
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    altphotoproducts

    altphotoproducts Advertiser Advertiser

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    Hi David,

    It must be transparent or sanded (if necessary).
    Thank you very much. Victor
    P.S. Tried to send email to your site two times unsuccessfully.
     
  13. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    Sorry that I did not catch this thread until now. I do in fact use a 5% solution of Kyraray R1100 as my base coating for both gum/dychromate and Pt/Pd/Au prints on glass. I actualy subsitute the R1130 for gum.. I have only made one cyanotype in my life. So I won't talk about that.
    Kuraray1130 is what I use in place of gelatin for all of my Silver-halide emulsions. Since glass is the only substrate I ever use, I cannot speak to other things.
    I will watch this forum for welcome questions. B&S does carry the R1130,although you may have to speak to Melody or Dana Sullivan directly to get it,as it is not on their list of chemicals..
    Bill
     
  14. John Cates

    John Cates Member

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    Sorry on resurrecting an old thread.

    New guy here, I came across this site when researching cyanotype and Gum Bichromate printing on glass. Wildbillbugman, could you expand on using 1110 and 1130. B&S does not list them but does have a glass coating treatment listed.
    I am primarily interested in Gum Bichromate but also cyanotype.

    How do you substitute R1130 for gum?
     
  15. NedL

    NedL Subscriber

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    Welcome to APUG, I mean PHOTRIO!

    I'm currently playing w/ VDB on glass, but so far w/ very limited success. Subscribed to thread.
     
  16. Herzeleid

    Herzeleid Member

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    I will bypass the polyvinyl alcohol issue I have no experience with Kuraray products. I used Mowiol 4-88 (or 8-88 I am not sure) %20 concentration. It works like gum arabic.
    More was discussed in detail http://altphotolist.org/lists/alt-photo-process-l/200708/msg00258.html

    When it comes making prints on glass you sometimes need a subbing for gelatin to adhere well. Usually in dry plates no subbing is necessary as long as the glass is thoroughly cleaned.
    For siderotype printing I find that subbing and coating with gelatin layer is the way to go.

    I made a few successful attempts but I don't pursue printing on glass, may be except for carbon printing. I am satisfied with the method I have used so I haven't tried other alternatives.

    One of the easiest subbing is albumen, as it is used in collodion glass negatives. One egg white in 1 lt distilled water mixed to a froth, filtered.
    I use 1 gr egg white powder in 300ml of distilled water and 1 ml of %28 ammonia. Pour it on to the glass and coat it like coating a collodion plate. Leave it to dry.
    Coat it with %5 gelatin add some hardeners (chrome or potassium alum) also add a few ml's of alcohol to remove bubbles.
    I coat the glass as if I am preparing a carbon tissue, I use a leveled stand and pour enough to make a 0,2 - 0,3 mm thick layer.
    Leave it to dry overnight, then coat it like you are brush coating paper. Let it dry, expose and process it.

    B&S sells amino silane, I read that might be the simplest of solutions to treat glass surface so it adheres to gelatin and similar colloids.

    One more method here, for collotype process. I am looking forward to try this method
    https://www.phototypie.fr/wordpress/en/adhesive-coat/
    I believe that is one though coat, it contains sodium silicate.
     
  17. John Cates

    John Cates Member

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    Thank you very much for this information. I know of a few gum printers that are interested also.

    John
     
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