Jobo CPE2+w.lift: First runs got me thinking

[Soeren]

So with my darkroom almost complet I finally got some time to run some film through the dev. After some cleaning up I set my CPE2 up and loaded 4 sheets 9X12 and after that run I did 2 sheets 13X18. Hmm it works like a charm but at the fix stage I started thinking:
The fix I currently use is old and smelly but ok. I decided to ditch it after each run just to get rid of it. That is so convenient when using the Jobo with the lift. No need to take the drain hose out of the container to collect the fix, just dump it all and take it to the disposal site.
Offcource Icant do that when I start using my new batch of fix but are there somekind of one shot fix around?
Which kind of wash cycles (runs/time) do you guys use/recomend?
Best regards

 

[ic-racer]

For sheet film in a Jobo drum I use a one min water wash after one-shot fix, then one min Permawash (may not be needed but I still use it x 30 years), then 1, 2 and 3 minutes of water (3 changes) all in the drum. Then I give a quick rinse in a tray of water to make sure the back is clear (90% of the time it is) then dip in Photo flo and hang.

 

[Don Wallace]

I never use one-shot fix. When I first mix it, I record the time it takes to clear and write that on the container. I then test periodically and when the time to clear is twice that, I discard it.

I develop only 4x5 in my CPE-2. After fixing, I use Kodak HCA for two minutes and then take the tank off the machine. I do a final five minute wash with the film still in the tank, filling the tank with a hose and dumping frequently.. Since the film is on a reel (I forget which one, but it holds six sheets of 4x5), I don't have to worry about the back.

I develop 5x7 and 8x10 in a 3005 drum (hand-rolled) and my procedure is similar to ic-racer: wash in the drum, followed by a rinse in a tray, just to make sure the back is clear.

I confess that I have never even heard of 9x12 film!

 

[MartinP]

That's 9cm by 12cm, sort of a metric version of 4"x5", and possibly related to a doubling of a familiar rollfilm-negative size. Possibly there was a 9cm roll at some point ?!

 

[mopar_guy]

There was once a format in somewhat common use: 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. 9cm x 12cm is close but not the same as 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 inch.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Welcome to the world of precise developing!

With sheet film, or in fact any kind of B&W film, I always use a 2% stop bath immediately after development. Firstly this stops development at a set time, secondly it does save your fixer for re-using. I drop the stop bath in and leave it in for 45 seconds, drain and the fixer goes in at the end of the minute.

Although it isn't important for a set time after a stop bath is used, it is part of my regime and is second nature.

For fixing with rotary and thinking about one shot fixing, the cheapest commercial fixer in this country is the 5 litre bottle of Tetenal liquid fixer, which I use at 9+1 and I have found it to be 8 minutes when fresh. Really clear film occurs around 4 minutes. This is mainly with FP4+ and some HP5+. Old TMax 100 requires 9 minutes of fixing.

I then use this old film fixer with RC prints for my contact sheets from the recently developed film(s). With RC film it isn't that important compared to Fibre paper, regarding fixer strength.

I wash film on the machine for 6 minutes or a bit longer with 6 changes of water. The first change is done after 30 seconds, the next after 45 seconds. The rest of the changes are done at approximately one minute intervals.

I then remove the drum, pull the reel out (I only have one 4x5 reel) one sheet at a time I remove and hold the film emulsion up between two fingers and lower the film into the wetting agent (Ilford's one) which is a 5x7 tray/dish.

Without the film touching the sides or the bottom, I gently agitate for 45 seconds, then I lift up, drain and around the one minute mark I then clip and hang.

I generally have very clean and unscratched negatives, although with sheet film the hard life they endure as they are pulled out of the film box, inserted into film holders, then eventually loaded onto reels, one can pick up the odd nick or bit of dust.

Mick.

 

[Soeren]

Thanks guys. Seems I can finetune my washingsteps a little and save some time here. I must admit I had a bit of trouble figuring out how to use the wetting agent ( solved now )
Im still interested in more info on using the fix one shot (dilution etc)
Mick; Scratched negs are my main concern right now, especially the 9X12 from my Voigtländer plateholders are a pita. Maybe when I more experienced the problem will be solved.
Best regards

 

[BobNewYork]

There was once a format in somewhat common use: 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. 9cm x 12cm is close but not the same as 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 inch.

I think we used to call that "Quarter Plate". "Whole Plate" was 6 1/2" x 8 1/2". B&W paper was sold (at least in the U.K.) in those sizes into the early seventies.

See - I'm full of information...............most of it entirely useless unfortunately:confused: (Ask my wife & kids )

Bob H

 

[Soeren]

I think we used to call that "Quarter Plate". "Whole Plate" was 6 1/2" x 8 1/2". B&W paper was sold (at least in the U.K.) in those sizes into the early seventies.

See - I'm full of information...............most of it entirely useless unfortunately:confused: (Ask my wife & kids )

Bob H

Are you Computer programmer at Microsoft?

 

[Don Wallace]

Thanks guys. Seems I can finetune my washingsteps a little and save some time here. I must admit I had a bit of trouble figuring out how to use the wetting agent ( solved now )
Im still interested in more info on using the fix one shot (dilution etc)
Mick; Scratched negs are my main concern right now, especially the 9X12 from my Voigtländer plateholders are a pita. Maybe when I more experienced the problem will be solved.
Best regards

Is there a reason why you want to use one-shot fix?

 

[dancqu]

Im still interested in more info on using the
fix one shot (dilution etc)

That's the only way I use fix, film and paper.
I process paper single tray, some what similar
to rotary processing. In to the tank or tray
then out and down the drain.
The fix is very dilute.

The general rule, so much silver so much
chemistry. Fixers work at almost any dilution.
The actual dilution depends upon the needed
Volume of solution.

As a guide I have found 20ml of rapid fixer
concentrate enough for a 120 film; solution
volume 500ml, dilution 1:24.

Fix time increases as dilution increases.
What are your solution volumes and how
many square inches processed at
same time? Dan

 

[nickandre]

I discard the fix after each run. Two reasons: I have 10 gallons of fix and I'm not going through it very fast. Also, it can't hurt film stability to be perfectly fixed every time.

 

[Soeren]

Is there a reason why you want to use one-shot fix?

Yes, convenience. The jobo comes with a lift and from that there runs a hose through which the drums are emptied. To collect all the waste in one container is much more convenient than taking the hose out of one containr and put it into another for collecting the fix and then back to collect more waste. Apart from that there is a risk of spilling a lot when doing that exercise or simply forget to move the hose.
Best regards

 

[Don Wallace]

I discard the fix after each run. Two reasons: I have 10 gallons of fix and I'm not going through it very fast. Also, it can't hurt film stability to be perfectly fixed every time.

But... it IS fixed perfectly every time if you monitor your fixer.

 

[dancqu]

Another Reason For One-Shot Fix

A convenience I forgot to mention in my post 11 this thread:

Skip the stop, develop - fix. The repeated use of the same
fix can, without a stop, lead to a build up of carry forward
developer. That according to some can lead to problems.
With one-shot the fix is fresh and no appreciable build
up of developer takes place.

I've tank developed many rolls of film going directly
from developer to fix. No problems. Dan

 

[Soeren]

Now for the stupid question.
Whats the minimum amount of fix(stock/concentrate) for each film as a rule of thump?
Maybe I can just do the math back from the films/L on the bottle
Which drum would you recommend for bulk processing 135 and 120 films looking at number of film vs amount of chemicals the processors motor can handle?
Best regards

 

[dancqu]

Concentrate Amounts

Whats the minimum amount of fix(stock/concentrate)
for each film as a rule of thump Best regards

My post 11 this thread suggests a starting point.
I've used as little as 15 ml of concentrate. Due to
aging I upped it to 20ml. A 120 or 36 exp. 35mm.

My estimate, 10 minutes give or take with
constant agitation. Perhaps less concentrate
will do but fix times increase. What solution
volume do you use? Dan

 

[Soeren]

My post 11 this thread suggests a starting point.
I've used as little as 15 ml of concentrate. Due to
aging I upped it to 20ml. A 120 or 36 exp. 35mm.

My estimate, 10 minutes give or take with
constant agitation. Perhaps less concentrate
will do but fix times increase. What solution
volume do you use? Dan

I didn't give the low volume much thought to start with so I just used the recommended dilution as written on the bottle. I think I used something like 15ml concentrate or so :rolleyes: Havn't got my GDP system up working yet
Best regards

 

[Mick Fagan]

Søren, the CPE2 has the smallest motor, and the early model, which I have, has the smallest of the small motors.

With that in mind, the original CPE2 was advertised with the capability of developing 8 x 135 rolls at a time, until they found the motors burning out. This was a combination of the 1520 tank plus two 1530 extension modules.

Eventually the popular combination of the 1520 tank and one 1530 extension module gave the possibility of 5 rolls of 135 film with 600ml of developer. This became the maximum recommended by Jobo, according to specification sheets I read in a German camera store, where I spent an obscene amount of money over a decade of holidays to Germany.

This became so popular that on my regular visits to Germany in the early to mid eighties, one could purchase Ilford ID11 in 600ml kits. Something Kodak, as far as I know, didn't worry about.

However I have found that the 1510 tank with the 1530 extension module allows one to develop 4 x 135 or 4 x 120 films with the use of 500mls of developer. Actually slightly less, but I round up to 500ml.

With this combination I have noticed that the motor is not stressed, the number of films able to be developed in a single process reasonable, plus it works out to be virtually 100% efficient with chemical usage, and square area of film developed.

With B&W I use D76 1+1 and 4 rolls at a time, for great results. The same applies for C41 and E6, although I haven't done E6 for about 5 years now.

The best tanks to get are obviously whatever is suitable for your cameras and/or film inputs, just remember that the Jobo tanks have many uses and combinations and are sometimes given different names for the same external thing which in combination with something else, has another name.

A case in point; the 2840 print drum is a two piece drum able to do a 30x40cm print. The small bottom part is, in print drum mode, referred to as a test print drum. However, with a 4x5" 2509 reel inserted, it becomes the smallest 4x5" sheet film drum available.

Mick.

 

[Soeren]

Thanks Mick.
I have the 2840 print drum and use the bottom as you descripe. I also have the 1520 drum but I am thinking of buying the 2553 so I dont have to remove and remount the reels for the drum with the lesser Diameter. Do you think it will be save to use the 2553(640ml) drum?
best regards

 

[Mick Fagan]

Søren, as I very regularly used the 600ml set-up on my small motor equipped CPE2 for many years and thousands of rolls, I would say it is a perfectly reasonable load for the motor.

Do though, note the sound and speed of your motor after you pour in the solution. The motor doesn't sound right on my unit, when I put together the 1520 tank plus two 1530 extension modules. In short, it slows down considerably and makes a sound one can only describe as, laboured. As a result I only tried that combination a couple of times (literally) before I shelved the idea and went for the smaller combination.

Common sense, will determine where you are happy with the load you are putting on your Jobo, you'll get a good feel for it's foibles, in a short time.

Mick.

 

[Soeren]

Søren, as I very regularly used the 600ml set-up on my small motor equipped CPE2 for many years and thousands of rolls, I would say it is a perfectly reasonable load for the motor.

Do though, note the sound and speed of your motor after you pour in the solution. The motor doesn't sound right on my unit, when I put together the 1520 tank plus two 1530 extension modules. In short, it slows down considerably and makes a sound one can only describe as, laboured. As a result I only tried that combination a couple of times (literally) before I shelved the idea and went for the smaller combination.

Common sense, will determine where you are happy with the load you are putting on your Jobo, you'll get a good feel for it's foibles, in a short time.

Mick.

Thanks again Mick. I'm about to buy a new drum and since they are kind of expensive I wouldn't like to buy a big one just to find the motor aint happy with it But it seems like the 2553 is the right choice. Do they come with reels or do I have to order them separately?
Are you doing E6 in your jobo?
Best regards

 

[Mick Fagan]

Søren, the last new drum and reel that I bought, was around 1989, possibly 1990-1 winter in Germany. I have no idea whether they come with reels these days.

Perhaps you should load up the motor with an amount of water to emulate the load factor you will be giving the unit. That is, try and fit about 650ml in a drum or a drum and extension combination that you (hopefully) have at hand.

That way you will get a feel for the machine. Bear in mind that the unit will certainly slow down a bit, this is normal. However a real slow down, accompanied with a sound like an electric motor under load, isn't good.

As for E6, well I last did E6 about 5 years ago when I did a batch of 120 and 4x5 sheets for a friend doing some architecture. I used Kodak 5 or 10 litre (cannot remember) which not only is perfect with one shot processing, but was quite surprisingly cheap.

Presumably you will be purchasing a kit, probably Tetenal, which if correctly used, should give you results you have possibly only ever dreamt possible. Doing your own E6 with a Jobo at home, is so much better than any lab.

I actually worked in a lab with an E6 dip-n-dunk set-up, yet I did my E6 stuff at home with my Jobo. Rotary processing with a Jobo, and especially with a lift, is very precise and repeatable. You will be chuffed with your results once you understand the mechanics of solutions, in and out.

Mick.

 

[Soeren]

Now I definitely need that new drum I have the tetenal kit and some exposed E6 film so Im ready to go
best regards

 

[Soeren]

Just bought a 15something on the bay. The price on the 2553 is prohibitly high.
Then I got another question. Whats the upper coqreel on the lift for?
Best regards