is it okay to add hardener to water stop bath?

[another_dirk]

Hi all,

this is the very first question I post here, although I've been reading and learning a lot over here for the past two years or so. I've searched the archives, but couldn't find the answer to this one:

is it okay to use hardener in a water stop bath?

I recently started LF photography (4x5"), and use Efke/Adox 100. It's really nice film, but as I've read over and over, and experienced myself, it scratches easily. I did refine my (tray developing) technique a little, but I can't seem to get scratchless negs. (well, I do sometimes, but never if something nice is on the negative!)

So, I was wondering whether a hardener would be the the way to go. I've read that the hardener can be added to either the stop bath or to the fixer. I'm inclined to use it in the stop bath, so the film gets more scratch resistant as early in the process as possible. The thing is however, I use a water stop bath, not a real (acid) stop bath. Is it okay to just add the hardener to the water stop bath, or would you recommend to add it to the fixer anyway?

Thanks a bunch,
Dirk

 

[Robert Hall]

The short version is: "Use it in the fix". (and use an acid stop bath)

The longer version is: Use an acid stop bath. It stops developement instantly and disallows developer carryover into the fix. This extends the fix capacity for doing it's job. The hardener is usually some kind of Alum (citrate?) that hardnes the film. It also lowers the ph of the fix from about 5.5 to 4 and changes the specific gravity of the fix.

Developer coming into the stop bath (water) would probably shorten the viability of the hardener and thusly reduce its effectiveness.

 

[lowellh]

Don't use hardener at all. Unless you are processing in a roller transport processor, hardener will serve no measurable value and probably cause more trouble than help.

 

[raucousimages]

I never use hardener. It will not do a lot until the neg is dry anyway. Test it. Take two negs and process one with and one with out hardener, then check them when they are still wet. Not much difference I found. I can tell a difference when I retouch a dry neg but wet ones will scratch ether way. Work on your processing. I use hangers for 4x5 and 5x7 but I tray process 8x10 one sheet at a time to prevent scratches.

 

[Lopaka]

Films produced now don't really need a hardener. One thing a hardener will do for you is impede the fix and wash process. In other words, if you use a hardener, double the fix time and double the wash time.

Bob

 

[Roger Hicks]

I can't help agreeing with the others that scratching is more likely to be a fault in your technique than in the film, so hardening won't help. Bit I've never tried Efke, so it's equally possible that I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Hi all,

this is the very first question I post here, although I've been reading and learning a lot over here for the past two years or so. I've searched the archives, but couldn't find the answer to this one:

is it okay to use hardener in a water stop bath?

I recently started LF photography (4x5"), and use Efke/Adox 100. It's really nice film, but as I've read over and over, and experienced myself, it scratches easily. I did refine my (tray developing) technique a little, but I can't seem to get scratchless negs. (well, I do sometimes, but never if something nice is on the negative!)

So, I was wondering whether a hardener would be the the way to go. I've read that the hardener can be added to either the stop bath or to the fixer. I'm inclined to use it in the stop bath, so the film gets more scratch resistant as early in the process as possible. The thing is however, I use a water stop bath, not a real (acid) stop bath. Is it okay to just add the hardener to the water stop bath, or would you recommend to add it to the fixer anyway?

Thanks a bunch,
Dirk

Dirk, I shoot a lot of 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 Efke 100 and Efke 25. I never use hardener with these films and I don't have scratches. I currently develop all of my sheet film in Pyrocat (HD, P and MC) which tans and toughens the emulsion. However, you can still scratch the emulsion if you mishandle the film. Sounds to me like you need more practice handling the film during development.

There are a lot of potentially undesirable consequences associated with using hardeners - especially so when they are used as a pre-development procedure.

 

[another_dirk]

Thank you all kindly for your input! I will first try to improve my technique rather than using a hardener. Hopefully, with practice I'll get less and less scratches on the negatives (I've only done my first box of Afke/Adox, so plenty of room for improvement I'd say!)

Dirk

 

[Curt]

Dirk, did you try one sheet in a tray to see if the scratching problem is shuffling the films in processing? Some time we read that there is a problem and several people start saying, "Yea, I have those scratches too" Some times it's just the way we are going about doing things. Change one thing then another to get to the finish. I handle film like it's golf leaf, very gently and kind. Clean hands, clean materials, smooth purposeful actions and movements. Develope like a Surgeon with extreme care. You will see results in a short time.

Good luck,
Curt

 

[another_dirk]

Thank you Curt for the suggestion. I must admit I have never developed one sheet at the time. I usually develop 3 sheets in about 500 ml solution (in a 5x7" tray), which I thought should be okay (I have read that it's possible to develop 6 to 8 sheets at the time using the shuffle method). But you're right, I should explore this possibility. Next time I'll do one sheet at the time.

Dirk

 

[ZorkiKat]

An alum-acetic acid can be helpful when processing in the tropics. I used this a lot with films with softer emulsions. The difference is there- negs processed with hardening stop bath dry with a higher sheen on the emulsion, compared to those without, which often show a more matte surface.

The use of diluted stock hardener (alum+sulphite+acetic acid) is recommended in an old photo reference book "Amateur Photographer's Handbook" (A.Sussman). ORWO also recommends hardening stopbath for tropical development.

Jay

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

It depends upon which type of hardener you intend to use.
The common found white alum based hardener to be effective is mixed with some acetic acid. So far so good because the stopping agent is already present.
But... to continue to be effective, after the hardener must be nothing because the white alum does not retain its effectiveness when put in a more alkaline condition.

So the best bet is to use the hardener in the fixer as a last step.

Not effective if you've scratched the film during the development process.

 

[Gerald Koch]

If you are experiencing problems with certain emulsions there's no reason not to use a hardening stop bath. Efke films are particularly troublesome for some people. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes. Here are two hardening stopbaths:

1. Dissolve one tsp each of potassium chrome alum and sodium bisulfite in one quart of water.

2. Kodak Hardening stopbath SB-3 is a 3% solution of potassium chrome alum in water.

With either bath allow the film to remain for 5 minutes with occasional gentle agitation and then transfer to your fixer. The used baths do not keep and should be discarded after use. The first is more economical than the second but probably produces less hardening.

Chrome alum produces a much greater amount of hardening than ordinary white alum and is worthwhile using.

Years ago, I routinely used a chrome alum stopbath when using an acutance developer to get the maximum resolution in my negatives.

Jerry

 

[juan]

I've used a lot of Efke film and got a lot of scratches at first. This film (for those who have not used it) seems to have a softer emulsion than more modern films.

All of my scratches and emulsion problems came during processing, and using a hardner in the fix didn't help (I didn't try the stop bath).

I have successfully used it by taking care that all my solutions - pre-soak, developer, stop (water for me), fixer and wash - are at the same temperature. But I'm near the tropics, so my solutions are at rather high temperatures.

Then I process each sheet separately. Sometimes I brush develop - at other times I develop in tubes using a minimal agitation technique. That's the only way I've been able to avoid scratches with Efke film
juan