"Improvised" first dev for E-6?

[Donald Qualls]

I've got a few rolls of exposed E-6 film (120), a couple more waiting to be exposed, and a hankering.

I'm already set up to develop C-41, meaning I have bleach, fixer, and final rinse (though it's not a formalin generating or carrying stabilizer, I can make up one of those if needed).

Cinestill sells their E-6 color developer separately from their kit (likely because even their blix has a much longer working life than the color dev), but I've been warned (by a YouTube user replying to a comment, so limited credibility) that the Cinestill first dev is prone to produce a blue cast in the final transparency on any film other than very fresh E100 -- with a claim that that's a well known sign of first dev problems.

The same YouTube user then went on to say using Dektol as a first dev is one of the stupidest things he's heard of.

We all know the first developer for E-6 is basically a black and white developer, specifically one that doesn't produce any dyes as oxidation products (so not a PPD derivative, I'd expect, though I've heard anecdotally of people getting faint dye images with Xtol on color films). Generally, my understanding was that you wanted pretty high contrast from the first dev (hence why it's canonically 6+ minutes at 100+ F -- equivalent to 19:30 at standard 68 F), but the complaint was, in part, that you'd "blow out the contrast" as well as losing Dmax due to lack of restrainer.

All that to ask: what's expected from an E-6 first developer, presuming that the Cinestill products aren't reliable? Or what else could have caused someone to think those devs don't work well (offhand, I was thinking light fogging during loading, temperature issues, or partially exhausted color dev)?

 

[Lachlan Young]

what's expected from an E-6 first developer

At the most simplified level, you need HQMS-K to develop evenly through all the emulsion layers, and enough solvency to access all the silver. Ron/ Photo Engineer wrote quite extensively on here about the E-6 FD - worth looking up his comments about the importance of HQMS, vis-a-vis HQ & the level of solvency the E-6 FD needed (it's not a low-fog developer).

You might also want to take a look at this patent.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I've got a few rolls of exposed E-6 film (120), a couple more waiting to be exposed, and a hankering.

I'm already set up to develop C-41, meaning I have bleach, fixer, and final rinse (though it's not a formalin generating or carrying stabilizer, I can make up one of those if needed).

Cinestill sells their E-6 color developer separately from their kit (likely because even their blix has a much longer working life than the color dev), but I've been warned (by a YouTube user replying to a comment, so limited credibility) that the Cinestill first dev is prone to produce a blue cast in the final transparency on any film other than very fresh E100 -- with a claim that that's a well known sign of first dev problems.

The same YouTube user then went on to say using Dektol as a first dev is one of the stupidest things he's heard of.

We all know the first developer for E-6 is basically a black and white developer, specifically one that doesn't produce any dyes as oxidation products (so not a PPD derivative, I'd expect, though I've heard anecdotally of people getting faint dye images with Xtol on color films). Generally, my understanding was that you wanted pretty high contrast from the first dev (hence why it's canonically 6+ minutes at 100+ F -- equivalent to 19:30 at standard 68 F), but the complaint was, in part, that you'd "blow out the contrast" as well as losing Dmax due to lack of restrainer.

All that to ask: what's expected from an E-6 first developer, presuming that the Cinestill products aren't reliable? Or what else could have caused someone to think those devs don't work well (offhand, I was thinking light fogging during loading, temperature issues, or partially exhausted color dev)?

Please trust me only once
ORWOCOLOR - First Developer
Sodium hexametaphosphate ..................... 2.0 g
Sodium sulfite ........ .................................. 40.0 g
Sodium tetraborate .......... ........................ 15.0 g
Hydroquinone ..................... ...................... 4.5 g
metol ....................... .................………........... 3.0g
Potassium carbonate .................. ............. 30.0 g
Potassium bromide .................................... 2.0 g
Potassium thiocyanate ............................... 2.0 g
Potassium iodide .................................... 0.007 g
Water to make ....... .................................... 1 L
pH = 10.2
12 min 25 C ± 0.25

 

[jtk]

Try D76 or anything else

 

[cmacd123]

if you think of how to process works (actually any reversal process) the first developer develops all the emusion that you have exposed to light. Later the colour developer makes dyes out of the remaining silver halide. film that was NOT exposed (like the edges) will lose no silver halide in the first developer, and so the colour developer will create dye in all three (or 4) layers) a spot that was 100% exposed will develop completly in the first developer, and so will leave Nothing for the colour developer to work with.
the colour developer thus only is critical as for it's ability to make dyes from any remaining silver halide.

basically all the control (if any) is in the first developer.

 

[mptcultist]

i don't really *** with improvised e-6 anymore, but you will probably get some results no matter what you have lying around. the main problem is guessing dev times.

for some times when i used 1+6/7ish ilford PQ at e6 process temperature:
- 6 minutes on a roll of E100 was on the order of 2ish stops under-devved
- 12 minutes on a roll of Retrochrome 400 totally cooked it. on the order of a stop and a half over.
- 10 minutes on a roll of gold 200 for c41 reversal produced pretty decent results.

 

[drmoss_ca]

I'm sure you'll do a better job than I did with Rodinal, a guessed re-exposure, and a C-41 presskit!

 

[Nikola Dulgiarov]

Stefan Lange (stefan4u) did extensive tests to hone in on E6 formulas that work in the home darkroom.
Without HQMS, the Zone V recipe described in the thread above (post #15) with Stefan's notes that follow regarding changes to the formula is a good starting point.
I don't think NaSCN/KSCN (sodium/potassium thiocyanate, aka rhodanide) can be substituted in a true E6 FD. Thiosulfates mess with the color balance too much and their solvent effect is not suitable in my experience.

I've found that the ZoneV formula, modified with 2.5 g KBr and 20mg (2ml/L of 1% solution) benzotriazole, and without calgon, worked well for the expired Provias that I had a large stock of. Then I obtained HQMS.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Then I obtained HQMS.

From where?

 

[jtk]

if you think of how to process works (actually any reversal process) the first developer develops all the emusion that you have exposed to light. Later the colour developer makes dyes out of the remaining silver halide. film that was NOT exposed (like the edges) will lose no silver halide in the first developer, and so the colour developer will create dye in all three (or 4) layers) a spot that was 100% exposed will develop completly in the first developer, and so will leave Nothing for the colour developer to work with.
the colour developer thus only is critical as for it's ability to make dyes from any remaining silver halide.

basically all the control (if any) is in the first developer.

Don't know about E6 but citrazinic acid in color developer could reduce contrast and increase color saturation in E4 without reducing EI.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Don't know about E6 but citrazinic acid in color developer could reduce contrast and increase color saturation in E4 without reducing EI.

Yes, it is true, some German formulas do not rely on citratenic acid and are very successful formulas.
Although the Germans have great solutions to a lot of dilemmas, you will always find colleagues here in this forum who refuse to use German chemical formulas.
From my personal point of view, the problem is that many people do not prefer to resort to the German formulas for purely personal and national reasons.
I imagine that some think that if he uses a German formula, then he may be considered in this behavior, as he raises the value of the German mentality and the German innovator and the value of the German product at the expense of the national research mentality and the national product.
ORWOCOLOR - Color Developer
Sodium hexametaphosphate .......................... 3.0 g
Hydroxylamine sulfate ........ ........................... 1.5 g
CD4.................................................................. 5.85g
Potassium carbonate ................................... 75.0 g
Sodium sulfite ..... .......................................... 3.0 g
Potassium bromide .. ...................................... 2.0 g
Water to make ............................................. ... 1 L
pH = 10.8-11.0

 

[Nikola Dulgiarov]

From where?

Initially obtained an amount from Suvatlar in Germany, then I started to synthesize it at home from HQ and H2SO4. As this is definitely OT, message me if you are interested in the details.

 

[grainyvision]

I've done improvised E-6 using C-41 chemicals and (old syrup formula) HC-110 at dilution A. Getting a single film at a single speed to work well is not a great challenge. I've seen some references to someone who had mastered a similar process for E100. I personally mastered Provia, though it required a specific C-41 developer as well (powedered tetenal) and had to be very fresh... like if you waited more than a day or two after mixing the color developer, you'd get a blue cast. The real issue with trying to replicate E-6 with improvised chemicals comes when you're trying to apply it to multiple different types of film and speeds.

If you really must improvise, I'd highly recommend downrating the film 1 stop slower. I had good luck with a number of different developers by rating Provia 100 at 50 or even 25.

You can see some of my previous research in this area at this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-6-transparencies-with-c-41-chemicals.160510/

 

[Donald Qualls]

Sounds like I'll be ahead to just buy first dev and color dev from Cinestill (much cheaper than a kit, as I can use my existing C-41 bleach, fixer, and final rinse). They're $12.99 each plus shipping in 1L package, which is plenty as long as I don't need to process 4x5 (not yet).

 

[peter k.]

You must be doing tray processing? Because you can develop four 4x5's in a daylight Sp-445, using 16oz

 

[Donald Qualls]

You must be doing tray processing? Because you can develop four 4x5's in a daylight Sp-445, using 16oz

Nope. I don't have an SP-445, I have a Yankee Agitank, it needs about 1.6+ liters to cover even a single 4x5 (but the same volume for twelve).

This probably leads to a very low likelihood I'll ever shoot E-6 in 4x5, since I'd need $52 worth of chemicals for first dev and color dev for a single sheet (though that would be enough chemistry to process multiple full tanks).

 

[peter k.]

Vell ya can get creative. Make yourself a small developing tank out of black ABS pipe and fittings. We made two of them years ago out of 2" ABS with three baffles to make it light tight. It will develop two MF or one 4x5 using 8oz of developer.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Vell ya can get creative. Make yourself a small developing tank out of black ABS pipe and fittings. We made two of them years ago out of 2" ABS with three baffles to make it light tight. It will develop two MF or one 4x5 using 8oz of developer.

I have a set of those tubes -- I think I use 1 1/2" Sched 40 ABS, fits 9x12 long way around and a slightly longer piece will take 4x5 short way around. Problem is, they got left loaded when I got pushed out of my old darkroom in 2007, and now they have film in them that's too curly to develop any other way (or probably to print or scan once developed). Might have to do some calculation to verify how much liquid they want (they're joined in twos and I can't find the other caps, though I suppose I could buy some at the Big Box store).

 

[Nodda Duma]

Donald if you get into shooting color 4x5, the SP-445 is definitely a solid investment. It will quickly pay for itself in saving cost of chemicals as it only uses ~half a quart.

Although…developing becomes so much more convenient that you will ultimately shoot much more film!

 

[peter k.]

Have to agree with Nodda Duma, and use mine when we shoot 4 or more MF, 9x12 or 4x5 but use my home made ones for less shots.

But here is some feedback about my home made ones. They are two separate tubes, not attached to each other. Without caps they are 9" long and will take a sheet of 4x5 length wise, going to the first light baffle, the long way. into the ABS pipe.
To fill completely about 12oz, but that includes the 3 light baffle sections. For MF use 6oz and for 4x5 or 9x12, 8oz. That's enough to swallow the film.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Have to agree with Nodda Duma, and use mine when we shoot 4 or more MF, 9x12 or 4x5 but use my home made ones for less shots.

But here is some feedback about my home made ones. They are two separate tubes, not attached to each other. Without caps they are 9" long and will take a sheet of 4x5 length wise, going to the first light baffle, the long way. into the ABS pipe.
To fill completely about 12oz, but that includes the 3 light baffle sections. For MF use 6oz and for 4x5 or 9x12, 8oz. That's enough to swallow the film.

At one time, I had intended to make ABS plumbing tubes that worked like Zone VI developing tubes -- small amount of chemical in the cap, load film in the tube and install on the cap, standing cap down, get them all loaded and lights on, then on timer start shake all tubes vigorously to evenly and completely wet the film before laying them on their sides in a tempering bath and rolling continuously to agitate. A couple reasons I never got around to it. First, ABS and PVC caps in under 3" size aren't flat on the end, so won't stand stably (and having these tip over, in the dark, while some are still open to load is a nightmare I'd rather not live); second, these don't work as well for multi-bath processes (they can be used this way; the rest of the E-6 process after first dev and stop can technically be done in the light, but then you're back to tray quantities for color dev and everything after).

The main reason I haven't sprung for the SP-445 is the cost. Not complaining that it's unreasonable -- there's a lot of effort behind that simple-looking device -- it's just a big bite out of my photography budget sometimes. If I shoot 4x5 E-6, I'll come up with a way to process in a tube like a print drum, using minimal chemical and pour-in, pour-out light trap at the end. As long as I can fill and drain in the light, I can use 60 or so ml per sheet, and all is well. Having a 3D printer will help a lot with that; frees me from the limitations of what sizes and shapes I can buy plastic pipe.

 

[Alain Deloc]

Please trust me only once
ORWOCOLOR - First Developer
Sodium hexametaphosphate ..................... 2.0 g
Sodium sulfite ........ .................................. 40.0 g
Sodium tetraborate .......... ........................ 15.0 g
Hydroquinone ..................... ...................... 4.5 g
metol ....................... .................………........... 3.0g
Potassium carbonate .................. ............. 30.0 g
Potassium bromide .................................... 2.0 g
Potassium thiocyanate ............................... 2.0 g
Potassium iodide .................................... 0.007 g
Water to make ....... .................................... 1 L
pH = 10.2
12 min 25 C ± 0.25

Do you have any color checker shots strip scans?