Ilford FP4 Plus: Needing some advice

cway · Apr 2, 2010

Hi, I took this photo -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/luisaguero/4475812716/ with Ilford FP4 Plus @ 133 (the 2nd mark after 100 in Leica M6 ISO selector).

It was a sunny noon. I measured the light in middle zones near the tree and closed aperture to get some detail of the sky.

Film was processed 7 min @ 24°C with Jobo CPP and HC-110 dil. B.

I´m not fully convinced on results. I think the sky is too grainy for a 125 film. My previous experience with films in that sensibility was with Ilford Pan 100 (example: Dead Link Removed ).

I want to know:
1) Do you like the photo?
2) I was wrong measuring light? or...
3) Film was overdeveloped or..
4) A combination of 2 & 3 contributed to the result?

Every critic and advice will be wellcome
Luis

Bob-D659 · Apr 2, 2010

Is that a scan of a print or the negative? Looks like compression artifacts in the image.

kristopher_lawrence · Apr 2, 2010

Oversharpened, highlight blown out probably by scanning. I suspect that your issue is on the digital side, not the analog one... ask on hybridphoto.

K

ic-racer · Apr 2, 2010

Contrasty paper always accentuates grain. If you want less grain, try MORE development and a softer paper.

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 2, 2010

From my understanding, a few things increase grain. One factor is your film should be developed at 20 degrees c. Higher temperature could increase grain. Also, ic-racer is correct with contrasty paper accentuates grain. Also keep your wet time of your film process to a minimum. The longer the film is wet, the grainer your film gets. Printing a negative on an enlarger with a condenser head will make the print seem grainier too.

cway · Apr 2, 2010

Thanks for the feedback!

It's a film scanned on lab (low res). Since i didn't finished my darkroom i´m hybrid so...would be a great idea ask in the hybrid side.

About development temp: Ilford suggest 7 minutes for hc-110 (b) @24°c. This is my 6th roll with rotary processor. With 400 (tmax and hp4) and tmax-3200 i've got good results with traditional development times, maybe this film is more prone to overdevelopment in rotary processors. Anyway I think like Kristopher, that issue is on the digital side.

Cheers! Luis.

Tim Gray · Apr 2, 2010

cway said:
It's a film scanned on lab (low res).

Sounds like the culprit to me.

brucemuir · Apr 2, 2010

I'm not about to judge from a scan web rez post but I will say this.
FP4+ will show grain in 35mm, especially in skies/continuous toned areas. It wont be as clean as a Delta or Tmax film.

It is a pleasant grain IMO and I use it to my advantage when at all possible.

Keep shooting and avoid high noon if you can for a softer look.

Looks like you have some great subject matter to shoot

keithwms · Apr 2, 2010

If you're going to be scanning until you have a darkroom ready, my suggestion is to use a staining developer (I use wd2d+). The resulting negs will scan better, while also being very nicely printable via traditional, optical methods.

2F/2F · Apr 2, 2010

First, it is 135 format, and FP4 is not a super grainless film. You can even coax grain from it even in large format if you really want to.

Next, before making any rash judgments, look at your actual negative to judge its exposure, and make an actual optical silver print to judge the grain. It may be less-than-ideally exposed, which in printing or in scanning would affect the grain, but especially in scanning. Scanning, especially low-end scanning, can accentuate grain, as can digital processing of pix.

cway · Apr 2, 2010

Atacched you can see the original file from the lab's scanner. I adjusted brightness and contrast in LR2. I reduce the size of my uploads to Flickr. It seems, based on your good observations, that i have a lot of variables to work with: developer, processing times, scanning. The good new is that lab-printed version has an acceptable contrast (what I couln´d get on web version).

2f/2f: As far as I know, there are no labs working analogue prints but i'll make a research on that.
keithwms: I'll consider your words on staining developer. Let me try first the nearest solutions.

Tim Gray / Brucemuir:Tomorrow i'll try a rescan with bigger rez and see what happens. Now autumn is coming and weather changes dramatically in patagonia (picture is from 3 weeks ago), but i want to come back to that place and try again, maybe burning a roll of FP4 and other of tmax-100 coz I really like that place and is possible that some paisano cut the tree with first snow storms so i have to come back asap...
Bruce: I try to avoid high noon but that sky was so awesome. The clouds in Patagonia take interesting shapes (cirrus, lenticulars). Next summer if I can escape from work I want to follow "veranada": the peasant summer migration from low to high lands. In this region of Neuquén takes about a week or more: some peasants go with their lambs for 100 miles, searching for better food. They stay for the summer. It's an ancestral activity in argentinean and chilean southern andes.

In the next days i'll tell you about the scans. Again, thank you for observations!!

cway · Apr 2, 2010

sorry i forgot to attach the file!

2F/2F · Apr 2, 2010

cway said:
As far as I know, there are no labs working analogue prints but i'll make a research on that.

You have to be joking.

1. Every "real" lab can make analog prints.

2. You don't need to take your prints to a lab to print them.

As for your picture, that is just what low-quality scans look like. Since it is scanning that you are having a problem with, and not the film, I'd troubleshoot it at Hybrid Photo dot org.

keithwms · Apr 2, 2010

2F/2F said:
1. Every "real" lab can make analog prints.

I suspect there might have been a few words missing in his answer. It is quite possible that there are no analogue labs where he lives. Sad but true.

viridari · Apr 4, 2010

cway said:
It's a film scanned on lab (low res).

I bet they are also doing a digital unsharp mask or other sharpening during the scan. Have them disable that for film scans.

Tim Gray · Apr 5, 2010

Though this is straying from the topic areas covered by APUG, I've found low res scans of traditional silver based negatives can make grain more pronounced than it actually is. I've also found that, as viridari says, most labs have a lot of sharpening done on their scanners. The two combined will give you grain city. Especially with a film like FP4+ which is grainier than say, TMAX 100.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 5, 2010

For what it's worth, in a developer such as Xtol or Edwal 12 it is entirely possible to make 11x14 prints that are surprisingly grain free from 35mm FP4+. I have seen it done.

In 2006 I used FP4+ and Pyrocat-MC a lot, and some 35mm frames made it to 12x16" prints with effective printing area of about 10x14" and it was actually difficult to see the grain if you viewed the prints from about 3-4 feet distance.

If you are not happy with the grain, you might find that you get better results in a manually agitated tank with longer agitation intervals, and a developer other than HC-110, which is definitely not a fine grain developer.

But by all means, embrace grain. Grain is your friend. As one of our dear departed members once stated: "That's called grain. It's supposed to be there!"

And the truth about judging grain by making optical prints is very valid. Scanning will accentuate grain of b&w negative film, especially if sharpening software has been used. You don't need that in optical printing. It's sharp enough already.

.

cway · Apr 5, 2010

Thomas Bertilsson said:
But by all means, embrace grain. Grain is your friend. As one of our dear departed members once stated: "That's called grain. It's supposed to be there!"
.

Hi Thomas, I like grain a lot. I usually shoot with 400 (or faster) films. But with this photo I wanted small grain. In fact, what I love about b&w film is their "texture": i was playing with Silver Efex Pro, it's an interesting add-on but never like the real thing. That is one of the reasons to avoid a Leica M9. The other is the price tag. Soon i'll have an enlarger.

Earlier in this thread I told I'll take the roll for hi rez scanning, but today I've find a small problem: I lost the roll! I searched every place in my house and it is not here! Ayyyyy what an ______!!! There's a proverb in my country: los boludos y las piedras nunca se van a acabar. Due to political correction I prefer to not translate the phrase, but those with spanish knowledge understand that today, this phrase applies to me.

Regarding developement, i bought recently the Jobo and following Jobo indications (start with spiral tank developement times, then adjust until desired developement). I got nice results, in 400 (TMAX & HP5) and TMAX-3200 in available light locations. At least better results than manual agitation. Massive dev chart was not clear for FP4 roll so i followed Ilford Instructions inside the box: 7 mins@24°c or 9min@20°c. Now, looking at Ilford Web you can read the next in thheir processing chart:

"For use in rotary processors without a pre-rinse, reduce the spiral tank
development times by up to 15%. A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing."

I have some things to learn prior to develop FP4 again. And I need a deep inmersion in zone system! A carefull try to adjust brightness and contrast(sorry, that's the digital part) with
other photo result in this.

For me this case is closed. I'll try to go next sunday with another roll :-/

Ilford FP4 Plus: Needing some advice

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency