Ilford Cooltone Developer and Multigrade IV RC Paper

[pentaxuser]

I want to try the Cooltone Developer that Ilford was kind enough to give us at the end of our visit in June combined with Multigrade IV RC.

I have only used Nova Developer up to now in a Nova Quad. I usually have the temp set to 24C which cuts dev. time down to about 45 secs. It's also a replenishment developer requiring the addition of 100mls every so many prints.

I note that Ilford's time for Multigrade IV is a lot more than Nova's at the same temp( min 1.5 mins compared to 1 min in Nova) and it recommends that temp is as close to 20C as possible although intriguingly it does say that it can be developed at slightly higher temp for a shorter time without specifying what constitutes "slightly higher temp or slightly less time.

Has anyone tried to develop at a higher temp and if so at what temp and at what time?

OK the answer may be stick to 20C and just accept the longer dev times compared to Nova and if so then OK but a temp of about 23C would be helpful as I have a colour wash and brightener in the Quad and it's set at 23C. That way I needn't make any alterations to the thermostat irrespective of whether I do B&W or use the brightener having done the rest of the colour work in a JOBO.

Finally can Ilford developer be used in the replenishment system recommended for a Nova Quad. If it can't and its use until exhaustion then dump, what's the life of Ilford Cooltone Dev in a slot processor like Nova?

If it is this way then my fear with a slot processor is that as the tray is vertical then the absorption of developer by each print will mean that the liquid level will cease to cover the print long before the developer is exhausted.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Craig]

I don't think there would be a problem running it at a higher temperature, but cooltone takes quite a bit longer to develop the tone than you would use for standard multigrade developer. The image will develop in a min, the tone takes much longer to come up.

I believe that Ilford says that it can take 6 min, and leaving it in the developer does make quite a difference to the tone.

 

[leeturner]

I'm using both the Cooltone and Warmtone devs with the warmtone being used in a Nova. I replenish 200ml before a printing session and have had no problems up to now. As Craig stated both developers take a while for the image to appear and at first it was a bit disconcerting seeing a blank sheet after 45 seconds. I give RC two minutes and FB 4 minutes.
I do tend to drain all chemicals out of the Nova pretty regularly, especially the fix as I'm using a lot of FB paper and like to keep the fixer fresh.

 

[Woolliscroft]

I find leaving most papers longer in the dev makes a useful, if subtle improvement in tonality and contrast. I generally leave even normal multigrades in for 2 mins.

David.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for all the replies. I tried a couple of negs tonight. On the first I used 2 mins and on the second 2.5 mins. Not a lot of difference but maybe not a fair comparison as one was available artificial light and the other was an outdoor night scene. Both were fine but developed at about 22/23degrees C. My darkroom temp is still around this temp. That was another reason for asking about what a slightly shorter dev time was for a slightly higher temp.

Even in the U.K. my darkroom ambient temp is above 20C for at least 3 months of the year. Anyway it seems a couple of degrees aren't critical and neither is 30 secs.

I did notice that an image formed in as little as 15 secs and in safelight conditions looked as well formed as in Nova developer in only a little longer time. So first signs of an image and image development rate doesn't seem to be a lot different from Nova.

The same print on the same paper but developed in Nova developer may show a difference but without a direct comparison in front of me then the prints look much the same as what I have been used to, using Nova Developer.

Maybe I should try a Cooltone paper print in Cooltone developer for a direct comparison.

pentaxuser

 

[Dave Miller]

For the sake of consistency I err on the longest time recommended for development, with r/c paper since it is difficult, if not impossible to run into problems caused by over-development. Temperature variation in the range 20 to 30C has little impact on print tone in my experience, and I stick with my standard development times over that range.
Ilford’s cooltone paper is slower to react than the rest of their range according to Ilford’s literature. I find Nova’s standard print developer gives results indistinguishable from Ilford’s warmtone developer on Ilford standard and warmtone MG1V, or on Kentmere’s VC Select, and Fineprint paper’s, it's just much slower working. However Ilford’s cooltone developer does give a cooler (blue) effect on their warmtone FB paper. I haven’t tried Ilford’s cooltone range of paper. I hope that helps.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

P.U

In the past, I was a user of Nova chemicals and I was using them in My Nova. When I dicided to change, I used the temperature graph on the side of their container for all other developers that I used there after with no ill effect.

At present I am using Ilfords warmtone developer in my Nova. My darkroom sits at about 24 degrees as it is next to the airing cupboard. I have no problems using their developer at this temperature, however, during the summer, at one point I was printing at 29 degrees in there, and adjusting using Novas temperature chart. Perfect prints every time.

One problem I have found with using Ilford warmtone in the Nova. When I return for my second printing session, usually a week or so later, my prints are prone to have the honecombe pattern on them from the Nova, something that I didn't experience with other developers. The way around this is obviously to keep the print moving slightly, but this can cause its own problems, especially when doing a reprint from an earlier neg. I don't know if this problem is excluive to the warmtone or if others have experienced it with the cooltone. John Simmons has had a lot of success with the cooltone, it might be worth sending him a P.M. I'm sure he could advise.

As far as replenishment goes. I'm not a fan. I prefer to call it 'topping up' i,e Have a printing session, top up that little bit you have used for your next session and then chuck. Ilfords chemicals definataly, by my experience, do not keep as well as Nova's, or some others for that matter.

In a nutshell, youv'e been spoilt with the Nova chems

Hope this helps

Kind Regards

Stoo

 

[leeturner]

P.U

The way around this is obviously to keep the print moving slightly, but this can cause its own problems, especially when doing a reprint from an earlier neg. I don't know if this problem is excluive to the warmtone or if others have experienced it with the cooltone. John Simmons has had a lot of success with the cooltone, it might be worth sending him a P.M. I'm sure he could advise.

Stoo, what difference do you find with moving the print. I move it for the first 20 seconds then leave for 20 seconds etc. I suppose the answer is to try it, but a couple of people told me that to prevent the honeycomb marks always give an initial 20 seconds of movement.
Pentaxuser, I've only used the warmtone dev in the Nova but on Ilford RC/FB and Forte FB it always takes about a minute for the image to appear and I've found no appreciable difference between fresh chemistry and replenished.

 

[Dave Miller]

snip!
a couple of people told me that to prevent the honeycomb marks always give an initial 20 seconds of movement.

This is Nova's recommendation, for 30 seconds I think.

 

[pentaxuser]

Stoo, Dave and Lee. Thanks for replies.
Stoo. Some clarification if I may. I think you are saying that you use Ilford's recommended dev time as a base and then adjust according to Nova's chart. So if I were to use my longest time of 2.5 mins, although Dave goes to 3mins, then if the temp is say 24C and the difference between 20 and 24C on the Nova chart is say 15 secs then reduce the Ilford time by 15 secs? OR are you saying reduce the Ilford time by the % reduction? So if Nova time at 20C is 60 secs and at 24C is 45 secs then reduce the Ilford time by 25%?

The third interpretation of what you are saying is use the Nova time's for Ilford developer but I don't think you mean this, do you?

I have always used constant movement anyway so have never seen any honeycomb pattern. I had always assumed that moving the print in the slot was the equivalent of constant tray rocking which is what I was taught on a nightschool darkroom course.

So second point of clarification is just curiosity, I suppose. Are you saying that if you simply dip the print into the slot using Ilford Warmtone without any movement that no pattern is apparent initially but has only appeared a week later? Intuitively I'd have thought that if the pattern is there it would appear once the print is dried i.e. in a few minutes if heat dried or maybe 20-30 mins if using the likes of a Paterson air drying rack.

I am not sure I follow you when you say that keeping the print moving creates its own problems when doing a reprint. I suppose it might if you mean that you have presented the recipient with a honeycombed print and then another which isn't honeycombed? Is this what you mean. I'd have thought that a honeycombed print is a waste bin print or does it have a look that has its own attractions - like grainy prints? I have never seen this phenomenon so am curious.

Dave. So no real advantage with Ilford's Warmtone Developer with various warmtone papers over Nova except shorter development time. If the Ilford time is 2mins but has a range of 1.5 to 3 mins and is shorter than Nova then what is the Nova time? It must be a lot longer than the time with Multigrade. At about 24C I print in Nova in about 40-45 secs.

Is the look of Ilford Warmtone paper developed in Ilford Cooltone developer worth a shot for it's look?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Dave Miller]

What a lot of questions.
Firstly I always develop my prints to completion, with R/C this is usually in about a minute with Nova chemistry, by the time I've drained the tank, and filled with the next bath you can add another 15 seconds. I cannot see any effect resulting from extended development, so variations for temperature is, in my view, a waste of time.

My experience with the cooltone developer is with warmtone FB paper where it's effect is noticable, unlike with the warmtone developer.

I should add that it is possible to overexpose the print by a couple of stops, and curtail development, and thereby obtain a warmer tone, but that dosn't suit my normal working method although others may like to experiment.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

P.U

I'll never be able to write a Haynes manual will I!

I'll be as brief as I can. Firstly, the development times: If you sat down and wrote the Nova chart down in figures, it will look like this for RC paper.

dev time................temp
40____________26
42.5___________25
45____________24
50____________23
52.5___________22
55____________21
60 __________20
62.5___________19
65____________18
67.5___________17
70____________16

The first thing you will notice is that in some places the temperature changes more i,e 20 degrees to 21 degrees is a reduction of 5 secs yet 21 degrees to 22 is only 2.5 secs reduction, why? I don't know but it works.

Ilfords MG Paper developer, Tetenal Vario W and a few others are the same times so I used the same chart, 60 secs at 20 degrees, 55 secs at 21 and so on.

Then I started to use fibre paper, which as you will know, ilford recommend 120 secs at 20 degrees, so I doubled the chart above in every way, and it looked like this

dev.................................temp

1 min, 40 sec__________23
1 min,45 sec___________22
1min, 50 sec___________21
2 mins___________20

and so on

So you see the reduction from 20 to 21degrees is now 10 secs, and it will be 15 secs after trebling the times for Ilfords Warmtone developer. I would be quite happy to scan and mail my charts to you if you wished.

I hope the above makes sence.

Agitation and honeycombeing

Fresh developer, first printing session

I agitate my print as most do, for the first 30 secs and then for 5 secs every 20 secs untill I am ready to pull the print. At end of session, all prints fine. Dry lovely and will stay like that forever (I hope).

Same developer, second printing session one week later.

Using the same agitation method as above during the session. Inspect the prints in darkroom, all looks good. But, when I get them in brighter light I can see the patterns of the Nova honeycombe in them.

My assumption is that while the chemicals have been sitting there for a week, I get a build up on the insides of the Nova slots, of what I don't know, but it causes parts of the paper to develop at a faster rate than the other, replicating the pattern of the Nova. Please note, I do not have this problem with any other developer.

Keeping the Print moving...problems


To stop the honeycombe problem, I decided to keep the print moving through development, as you already do. By doing this, like you, I will not get the H/combe problem as the print will not rest on the side of the Nova's slots.

BUT

I found that by doing this the prints were coming out lighter (less developed) than the original print, because I had changed my agitation method. With the print moving all the time, the paper wasn't getting as much chance to stand stand and develop, I suppose similar to a film in its tank. If you were to change your agitation method to mine and Lee's, your prints would come out of the developer darker. Thats what I meant by continuous agitation having/causing its own problems.

And Yes, a H/combed print is definately for the bin.

I hope this makes sence to you P.U and has answered Lee's question aswell. Sorry I'm so crap with words and feel free to ask again if you still don't understand.

Kind Regards

Stoo

 

[pentaxuser]

Stoo. Thanks. It all makes perfect sense now except that as you say it's a case of applying continuous agitation to ensure that all prints no matter when done avoid the honeycomb pattern. I suppose the saving grace is that with very short development times for Nova developer and Multigrade RC, there's little that you could be getting on with anyway. However it's a different story with Ilford Cooltone and Warmtone Devs especially with Cooltone and Warmtone paper and FB where there is time to do other things if it didn't lead to the problem you describe by leaving the paper to sit in the slots.

I have seen an article on someone's website who mentioned the very problem you describe. If I recall correctly the article ended with the writer and Nova agreeing to disagree as to whether the issue existed at all.

Another interesting observation you make is that slot agitation ends in lighter prints compared to allowing the print to sit in the slot. I had always assumed that agitation actually speeded development and would if anything made prints darker as you are passing the print through the slot so it constantly meets fresh developer.

I have only seen one other person use a Nova slot. He was a professional ( can't recall his name) giving a course which was a days introduction to photography darkroom work, both colour and B&W. It was held at Jessop's head store in Leicester just before the rush to digital . It was March 2002 so virtually pre-historic times. As I recall things he applied movement to the print every few seconds.

There's about as much chance of getting Jessops to run such courses now as there is to getting I.K. Brunel to turn up to talk about bridge construction and wide gauge railways.

pentaxuser

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

I have seen an article on someone's website who mentioned the very problem you describe. If I recall correctly the article ended with the writer and Nova agreeing to disagree as to whether the issue existed at all.pentaxuser

Oh it definately exists. The only problem is the evidence is always thrown away!

The agitation method that you mentioned the Pro used is the very same one that I use now. Along with my normal agitation method, in between agitations I touch the Nova clip slightly to move it along about every 5 secs, just so the paper doesn't stand still. Its either that or move back to Tetenal Vario W, which would be no bad thing.
Regards

Stoo

 

[pentaxuser]

Oh it definately exists. The only problem is the evidence is always thrown away!

The agitation method that you mentioned the Pro used is the very same one that I use now. Along with my normal agitation method, in between agitations I touch the Nova clip slightly to move it along about every 5 secs, just so the paper doesn't stand still. Its either that or move back to Tetenal Vario W, which would be no bad thing.
Regards

Stoo

Stoo. I am learning new things all the time. Not really familiar with Tetenal B&W products but my internet research leads me to believe that Tetenal Vario W is paper. So, if I am correct then you are saying that Tetenal paper doesn't suffer from this honeycomb pattern problem as does Ilford?

Have I got this correct and if so I wonder why there's isn't a problem with Tetenal. Is it only Tetenal that's free of this? What about Kentmere, Paterson etc?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

P.U

No, Tetenal vario W is a warmtone paper developer. Its called Vario because, like Nova, it is made to be used under variating temperature conditions. It can be found here:

www.tetenal.co.uk/B_W__Positive_developers_for_tray_processing.html


The problem is definately a mixture of developer/time that developer is left standing in Nova slots/agitation problem, and not one of paper.

Having said that, I do now soley use Ilford paper, apart from the odd move to Kentmere Art Classic (slowly running out) though when using other papers in the past, no problems have occured

Regards

Stoo

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

Sorry, I cant make that link work. Look under positive developers.

Stoo

 

[Dave Miller]

Just a small correction if I may, in the interest of keeping this fascinating discussion on the rails.

Stoo said, “No, Tetenal vario W is a warmtone paper developer. Its called Vario because, like Nova, it is made to be used under varying temperature conditions.”

As far as I can make out from the limited Tetenal literature I have this developer is called Variospeed W and relates to their Vario papers which are variable contrast. So nothing to do with temperature.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

Just a small correction if I may, in the interest of keeping this fascinating discussion on the rails.

Stoo said, “No, Tetenal vario W is a warmtone paper developer. Its called Vario because, like Nova, it is made to be used under varying temperature conditions.”

As far as I can make out from the limited Tetenal literature I have this developer is called Variospeed W and relates to their Vario papers which are variable contrast. So nothing to do with temperature.

Thank you Dave, For the correction.

And apologies to Pentaxuser for the confusion.

I got in to a habit of calling it 'vario' for my printing notes. I often forget that no one else will have a clue what I'm going on about.

Regards

Stoo

 

[Bob F.]

Nothing new to add really, but FWIW, I agitate more or less continuously in the slot - slowly up/down continuously until I start to get an image and then every 10 seconds or so. I develop to completion which I gauge by taking the time an image starts to appear and multiply that by 6 to get the full time. A few densitometer readings I took suggested this ensured complete development (MGIV & Fineprint).

24C is my standard temp, but as I develop to completion (to all intents and porpoises) the temp isn't that critical - in the warm weather we had recently, it was running at 28C ambient. When the levels in the slots fall too low, as they do with 12x16" FB quite quickly, I just top-up with working strength. I use home brewed Ansco 130 in the slot and that keeps practically forever. If I want to play with another developer, I use a tray.

Have fun, Bob.

 

[pentaxuser]

I touch the Nova clip slightly to move it along about every 5 secs, just so the paper doesn't stand still. Its either that or move back to Tetenal Vario W, which would be no bad thing.
Regards

Stoo

Stoo. Thanks. I now understand that Tetenal Vario W is a developer. I think that you are saying is that the honeycomb problem doesn't occur with any developer when its new and at that stage you can let the print just sit in the slot but a week later it does occur with any and every developer UNLESS you agitate.

It was your phrase above made me wonder as I thought that in the context of your reply that Tetenal Vario was the cure to honeycombing when you said "it's either that or moving back to Tetenal".

If I have now got things correct in my statement of understanding then a reply with a simple YES will be fine.

Sorry if I appear to be labouring the subject but I need to get to the bottom of things.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

I touch the Nova clip slightly to move it along about every 5 secs, just so the paper doesn't stand still. Its either that or move back to Tetenal Vario W, which would be no bad thing.
Regards

Stoo

Stoo. Thanks. I now understand that Tetenal Vario W is a developer. I think that you are saying is that the honeycomb problem doesn't occur with any developer when its new and at that stage you can let the print just sit in the slot but a week later it does occur with any and every developer UNLESS you agitate.

It was your phrase above made me wonder as I thought that in the context of your reply that Tetenal Vario was the cure to honeycombing when you said "it's either that or moving back to Tetenal".

If I have now got things correct in my statement of understanding then a reply with a simple YES will be fine.

Sorry if I appear to be labouring the subject but I need to get to the bottom of things.

Thanks

pentaxuser

YES, but the problem seems to be more evident with Ilfords Warmtone developer.

Stoo

 

[pentaxuser]

Stoo. Thanks. Like the TV series I have just been watching - Sorted.

pentaxuser