HP 9180 users?

[Loris Medici]

Hi all,

I just purchased an HP 9180 and plan to use it for making digital negatives. Does anybody here use HP 9180 for this purpose? If yes, what would be their general comments / suggestions / warnings?

I make (and/or plan to make) New Cyanotypes, New Chrysotypes, POP Palladiums (LiPd variant), Gums and Carbons. I will use Photowarehouse's Ultrafine Crystal Clear transparency as the negative substrate.

• What are your recommended printer settings?
• Can I use the main (bottom) tray to feed the negatives or should I use specialty media manual feeding feature?
• Does the inks dry quickly on Ultrafine? Should I slow down the printer? If yes, how?
• What colors look most smooth to you?

I would be grateful if you share your experiences in digital negative making with this printer.

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

 

[Ted Harris]

Loris,

You need to feed the film through the manual feed slot, at least that is the case with Pictorico film. You don't need to do anything heroic (like slowing down the printer). All colors look smooth to me.

If you check other threads here you will see an extensive discussion of the the B9180. Basically, it outperforms all of the current generation Epson scanners.

Sandy King will likely weigh in here with more deetail.

 

[Loris Medici]

Thanks Ted,

The "film" I plan to use with this printer is considerably thinner than Pictorico (only 3 mils). What is the problem with feeding Pictorico from the main tray? I have little space at the back of the printer; using the manual feeding slot is a problem for my current setting... The color question wasn't asked thinking positive prints on paper -> it was for prints made w/ digital negatives. I noticed the discussions regarding the printer but couldn't find any information on the specific questions I've asked.

Thanks again,
Loris.

 

[Ted Harris]

Loris, 3 mils should work fine from the tray but I would still only use the tray a s a last resort for a digital negative. Filmof any sort is funny stuff and the tray is not a straight through path as is the manual feed slot. You don' treally need that much room .... the film or paper can curl up against a wall if necessary. Mine is sitting about 9-10 inches out from teh wall and when I feed in a 13x19 sheet that is exactly what happens and no damage done.

 

[Loris Medici]

Thanks again. I just put a piece of thick cardboard on the back of the printer - the shape and inclination is very similar to the output tray of the 1280...

Regards,
Loris.

 

[Loris Medici]

Hi all,

I tried HP9180 w/ (PhotoWarehouse) Ultrafine Crystal Clear and the result was a disaster:

1) The printer can't see the ultra transparent substrate and refuse to load it.
2) You have to tape the negative substrate to plain paper in order to be able to load it - it's a real PITA!
3) Ink stays on the substrate but the printer's paper guides leave distinct marks on the emulsion - the dreaded "pizza wheel marks".
4) Black ink can't hold UV light back! (I used "HP Advanced Photo Paper - Glossy" profile and "Maximum dpi" setting.) Eventually inks are not as dense as Epson dyes against UV light.
5) I can see considerable grain in the test print - where the color should be smooth (leftmost part of PDN CDRP).

See the scan of the test print (straight Ziatype w/o any additions) here:
Dead Link Removed
(Notice the graininess at the left + the marks caused by pizza wheels.)

I tried to print another target on Pictorico (but haven't had the opportunity to print it), there are no pizza wheels on that substrate -> but I can still see some very fine scratches which probably won't register on the final print.

I suspect "HP Advanced Photo Paper - Glossy" is not the best profile to print digital negatives. What other profiles would you recommend? (I need log 2.9 UV density range for straight Ziatypes.)

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

 

[Ted Harris]

First, there have been several reports that the Photo Warehouse film won't hold ink on the HP or most other pigment printers for that matter.

Second, IIRC, if you look at the instruction sheet that came with the Pictorico film it gives you recommended paper settings. I know when I ran the tests for Sandy for digital negatives on Pictorico on the B9180 I got perfect prints with no marks or scratches. Pictorico recommends premium photopaper glossy. BTW, I find that the best way to feed the film is to open the door and gently guide the film under the rollers from the speciality slot. If you are jsut pushing it in that may be causing scratches.

 

[MVNelson]

for where you seem to be starting, have considered using a decidely easier method of making digital negatives? The principle and method of PDN are great. However, might I suggest ChartThrob/RPN-arrays? Its free, its easy, its fast and its well posted here on Hybridphoto..? The principles are similar and so knowledge and experience will be complimentry. My printer is a canon IPF5000 and thus can't help with the pizza wheel deal (can they be carefully buffed off?). For many either using composite black pigment (or ink) or the proper color digital negative will get the negative/process match you need. Check out, http://www.botzilla.com/blog/archives/000544.html , and Dead Link Removed

have fun and good luck....BTW I am you will be able to get what you want from your new printer ...

Miles

 

[Loris Medici]

Dear Ted,

(Ink holding capacity)You're right. Nevertheless I wanted to try since PhotoWarehouse film was working better than Pictorico back when I was using Piezography inks for printing negatives (literally bulletproof!).

(Paper settings)I couldn't find a reference to paper / printer settings on the packaging. Instead, there's an information page on their site: http://www.pictorico.com/setting.php. It says "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper, Glossy". I don't have the printer in front of me right now, will look for that paper setting when I get back home... Exactly what setting did you used for the negatives you've made for Sandy?

(Paper feeding) I'm doing exactly as you described. I've done a test with the Pictorico negative and the result was much much better:
* The ultra-fine scratches didn't register on the print.
* Somehow, even if I used exactly same paper profile / printer settings, the inks on the Pictorico negative was able to hold back UV light better. (Can someone explain this to me? BTW, before you ask: Yes, I increased the exposure time to adjust for the denser Pictorico base...)

The graininess still is there. (Will scan the print later today and share...)

Best regards,
Loris.

P.S. Sandy? Where are you? I need your help

 

[Loris Medici]

Hi Mark, thanks for the notification.

I'm pretty experienced in making digital negatives; I had done (grayscale) digital negatives using a similar method to Mark's before he published his (wonderful) book - now I use his method (colorized negatives). BTW, I've made good-working digital negatives for: Classic Cyanotype, New Cyanotype, Vandyke, Kallitype, Argyrotype, New Chrysotype, POP Palladium and Gum

My real problem is: I have difficulties in the transition period from Epson 1290 to HP 9180. I know Epson's (owned 1160, 890 and 1290 before) but I'm a real HP illiterate. Anyway... (Original Epson inks and PhotoWarehouse film was just perfect! I'm starting to miss that combo...)

I know ChartThrob -> I think PDN system gives me more control and subtlety in designing the curve.

I also know RPN arrays and will definitely try the targets later (because the standard PDN target is grainy; maybe I can find a color which is not grainy w/ the RPN array) -> neat idea; kudos Michael!

Regards,
Loris.

for where you seem to be starting, have considered using a decidely easier method of making digital negatives? The principle and method of PDN are great. However, might I suggest ChartThrob/RPN-arrays? Its free, its easy, its fast and its well posted here on Hybridphoto..? The principles are similar and so knowledge and experience will be complimentry. My printer is a canon IPF5000 and thus can't help with the pizza wheel deal (can they be carefully buffed off?). For many either using composite black pigment (or ink) or the proper color digital negative will get the negative/process match you need. Check out, http://www.botzilla.com/blog/archives/000544.html , and Dead Link Removed

have fun and good luck....BTW I am you will be able to get what you want from your new printer ...

Miles

 

[MVNelson]

Well, then it sounds like you will just need to settle into your new HP. A lot of the new nuances that are aggravating will resolve with your persistence. I use Canon's Transparency Clear Film for my negs, works really great, and pictorico for the smaller negs until my supply of it is gone. I prefer Canon TCF by far...
Post some stuff so I can learn!

Miles

 

[Loris Medici]

Hi again,

See the second print (made w/ the Pictorico negative) here:
Dead Link Removed

Confusing isn't it? The print is much much better than the one made w/ the PhotoWarehouse negative - despite the paper / printer settings were exactly the same, and exposure times were equivalent...

I guess I will ask Sandy how he uses his printer (for best results) when he gets back from Spain.

Best regards,
Loris.

Well, then it sounds like you will just need to settle into your new HP. A lot of the new nuances that are aggravating will resolve with your persistence. I use Canon's Transparency Clear Film for my negs, works really great, and pictorico for the smaller negs until my supply of it is gone. I prefer Canon TCF by far...
Post some stuff so I can learn!

Miles

 

[Loris Medici]

BTW, let us know if the sample [you've sent / you're going to send] to Sandy works well for him -> if it works well I will look for local suppliers for this material. Because I hate the idea of being forced to turn back to *very expensive* Pictorico material (almost x6 to me - including overseas shipment + customs). I was very happy with 1290 dye inks + PhotoWarehouse transparency (and I still have an unopened 100 pack of 11x17 sheets).

Regards,
Loris.

...I use Canon's Transparency Clear Film for my negs, works really great, and pictorico for the smaller negs until my supply of it is gone. I prefer Canon TCF by far...

 

[MVNelson]

BTW, let us know if the sample [you've sent / you're going to send] to Sandy works well for him -> if it works well I will look for local suppliers for this material. Because I hate the idea of being forced to turn back to *very expensive* Pictorico material (almost x6 to me - including overseas shipment + customs). I was very happy with 1290 dye inks + PhotoWarehouse transparency (and I still have an unopened 100 pack of 11x17 sheets).

Regards,
Loris.

Yeah, I too am interested in what Sandy thinks of the Canon TCF. I sent him 5 sheets of 13X19 inch ( all I would part with ) . I have never seen or used Photowarehouse trans. but I belive they they are similar in thickness. I thought I wouldn't like the thinner film compared to Pictorico but oddly enough it seems to be a bit easier to work with. I imagine we'll have to await Sandy's return from Spain for his verdict. Meanwhile, looks like another nice diginegative is about done printing as I type...

Miles

 

[sanking]

P.S. Sandy? Where are you? I need your help

Hi Loris,

I have been in Spain since the third week of April and did not follow any internet threads. Just got back home this evening. I read through the thread and have some comments which I will post tomorrow.

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Loris,

You probably know about as much as me about the HP 9180 at this point, but here are some of my observations at this time.

First, you should be getting a lot of UV blocking density with the 9180 if using the right settings. More than Epson printers by far. Here is what I do.

Printing from Photoshop, go to Print with Preview, and then use the same settings you use for Epson printers, i.e. set Document to Adobe RGB (1998), and Profile to Same as Source. Click on Print and then go to the Paper Type/Quality menu. Set paper type to HP Photo Paper Gloss, Quality to maximum dpi, Color to Application Managed Colors, Color Options to default values, and Ink settings to default values. Select Specialty Media Tray.

When I used these setting I get very high UV blocking. The UV blocking of composite black is about 2.20 (UV), less than with your 1280, but about the same as current Epson models. UV blocking with PDN colors is much higher than with current Epson printers, which should give several choices for smoothest color.

My experience is that the pigment inks of the HP 9180 dry about as fast as those of the Epson 3800, which is slower than with my Epson 2200, and probably a lot slower than with your 1280. Drying is plenty fast enough on Pictorico, but the Photo Warehouse OHO is notorious for slow drying, and may not work for you on the 9180. However, this is a substrate problem more than a printer problem. I am going to test very soon the Canon OHP material that Miles sent me to see how it compares to Pictorico. It may be a better choice than the Photo Warehouse material, but again only real live tests will tell.

About feeding the OHP through the printer. I agree with Ted that it is much better to use the Specialty Media Tray since there is a straight through feed. I have had no problem at all with Pictorico, but the Photo Warehouse OHP is often curled and this interferes with feeding. What I did not solve this problem was to tape the OHP to a piece of white Mylar of abut 20 mil at the feeding end with thin litho tape at the two sides. No feeding problem and it is very easy to do.

There is one further issue with the Photo Warehouse material, and that is the fact that the maximum UV blocking density is significantly less for a given RGB color than with Pictorico. Curiously, this is also the case with the Epson 3800 as Don Hutton reported in another thread. For example, an RGB value of R=255, G=0, B=0 gives a density range of 2.20 with Pictorico, compared to only 1.90 with the Photo Warehouse materials. This is UV readings after adjusting for substrate reading. This is something of a mystery to me, but it is the case.

OK, so you still have a lot of the Photo Warehouse material and want to try to make it work. Assuming you want a DR of about 2.00 for palladium printing, you will get that with an RGB setting of R=255, G60, B=0. With Pictorico, you can get a DR of about 2.0 with a setting of R=255, G=0, B=10.

My experience to this point is that the Red array gives smoother tones than either composite black or the Green array, and offers less risk of pizza wheel marks since the colors dry faster. You may be able to make this work for you with the Photo Warehouse OHP. I have made a number of digital negatives with these settings on this material without pizza wheel marks.

Hope some of this is of use to you.

Sandy

 

[Loris Medici]

Thanks Sandy,

Will try further later, right now I don't have time for photography / printing...

Unfortunately Photo Warehouse material is not suitable for this printer. I think I'm going to order a roll of 17"x66' Pictorico Ultra (new material, more milky). I couldn't get rid of pizza wheel marks. (They show up in the print!)

Reds are not suitable for me because I need negatives w/ density range around log 2.4 to 2.9 (depending on additives). I print POP Palladium using the Li salt (commercially known as Ziatype). My last test indicates that I should use G255 B30 for straight Ziatypes -> even R255 B0 show tone in the test print...

Will contact you privately as soon as I have time to make tests.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,
Loris.

 

[sanking]

Thanks Sandy,


Reds are not suitable for me because I need negatives w/ density range around log 2.4 to 2.9 (depending on additives). I print POP Palladium using the Li salt (commercially known as Ziatype). My last test indicates that I should use G255 B30 for straight Ziatypes -> even R255 B0 show tone in the test print...


Regards,
Loris.

There is no question but that the faster dryng Pictorico is more suited for the HP 9180 than the Photo Warehouse material. However, the kind of density range you are looking for can be readily obtained with the settings I described using an RGB value of R=255, G= 110 to 170, B=0. Depending on the value of G you use your DR should be between 2.45 and 2.95 on the PhotoWarehouse material with the settings I indicated, and I personally have no problems with pizza wheel marks with this color.

BTW, even with the heavier Pictorico I think you may have problem with loading with the HP 9180 if the OHP is in any way curved, as it is likely to be if cut from a roll. So even with Pictorico I would advise using a very thin tape and attaching the OHP to a sheet of flat mylar.

Sandy

 

[Jeremy]

I think I'm going to order a roll of 17"x66' Pictorico Ultra (new material, more milky).

Why the 17" roll? They offer the new Pictorico in 13" rolls which is what I cut down to use in my 2200.

 

[Loris Medici]

Hi Sandy,

See my previous post here:
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453&postcount=12

You'll see that I can't get paper white in the R+B branch and R+G branch is completely white (I don't have any hint for the correct color). Maybe I should just try the colors you suggested and see what happens - but it doesn't sound right (because I can't see any tone in the R + G branch)... According to the test print I should start to try from R255 + G10. What is your take?

Your comment about curved film is because there's a high risk of collision with traveling printer head and substrate right? I'm also confused about head alignment -> do you align the heads using the mylar+substrate combo or are you using the photo paper which arrived with the printer?

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

There is no question but that the faster dryng Pictorico is more suited for the HP 9180 than the Photo Warehouse material. However, the kind of density range you are looking for can be readily obtained with the settings I described using an RGB value of R=255, G= 110 to 170, B=0. Depending on the value of G you use your DR should be between 2.45 and 2.95 on the PhotoWarehouse material with the settings I indicated, and I personally have no problems with pizza wheel marks with this color.

BTW, even with the heavier Pictorico I think you may have problem with loading with the HP 9180 if the OHP is in any way curved, as it is likely to be if cut from a roll. So even with Pictorico I would advise using a very thin tape and attaching the OHP to a sheet of flat mylar.

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Hi Sandy,

See my previous post here:
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453&postcount=12

You'll see that I can't get paper white in the R+B branch and R+G branch is completely white (I don't have any hint for the correct color). Maybe I should just try the colors you suggested and see what happens - but it doesn't sound right (because I can't see any tone in the R + G branch)... According to the test print I should start to try from R255 + G10. What is your take?

Your comment about curved film is because there's a high risk of collision with traveling printer head and substrate right? I'm also confused about head alignment -> do you align the heads using the mylar+substrate combo or are you using the photo paper which arrived with the printer?

Thanks in advance,
Loris.

Loris,

I must confess that I don't usually print out the tonal palette when testing for PDN. I just measure the squares with a UV densitomer and select an RGB square that gives me the DR needed, then print the 100 step wedge with selected color layer. This is not 100% reliable because the UV blocking sometimes does not correspond exactly to the process, but it does with most colors. It specifically does for me with carbon and VDB with the Red values I suggested and with composite black.

I did the head alignment with the glossy paper provided for this purpose by HP. This paper is very close in thickness to Pictorico. 0.01" compared to 0.008".

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Hi Sandy,

See my previous post here:
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3453&postcount=12

You'll see that I can't get paper white in the R+B branch and R+G branch is completely white (I don't have any hint for the correct color). Maybe I should just try the colors you suggested and see what happens - but it doesn't sound right (because I can't see any tone in the R + G branch)... According to the test print I should start to try from R255 + G10. What is your take?
Thanks in advance,
Loris.

Loris,

How are you doing with the HP 9080?

Some time ago I promised to provide you with the settings I use with this printer for PDN. These setting are capable of a wide range of maximum UV blocking density, all the way up to about log 4.76 which is way more than anyone would need I believe. I am able to get paper white with pure palladium printing with PDN settings of either R-255, G-20, B-0, or G-255, R-30, B-0. Either setting gives UV blocking of about log 2.70, counting the Pictorico substrate, with very linear results on a 100 step wedge. I personall like the Red more since it appears to be smoother, and effective UP printing density is same as what I read with a densitometer. The Green path works fine also, but UV printing and densitometer readings are quite off.

If you need more UV blocking with either path, just add more G to the Red path, or more R to the G path. For example, R-255, G-100, B-O gives UV blocking of log 3.25 (plus the substrate). Adding about R-100 to the G path should give about the same blockig, but am less sure about exact values since densitometer read and actual blocking does not match.

In any event, here are the setting I use.

Printing Color Digital Negatives with the HP 9180

1. First, prepare the file by sizing and making it look on screen as you like.

2. Invert the file.

3. Apply the color layer.

4. To print from Photoshop, click on Print with Preview, and then use the same settings you use for Epson printers to print PDN negatives. Set Document to Adobe RGB (1998), and Profile to Same as Source.

5. Click on Print.

6. In the Copies and Pages Menu, click Paper Type/Quality menu.

7. Set paper type to HP Photo Paper Gloss, Quality to maximum dpi, Color to Application Managed Colors, Color Options to default values, and Ink settings to default values. Select Specialty Media Tray for Pictorico film.

8. Print

Let me know how this works.

Sandy King

 

[donbga]

HP 9180

Sandy,

Does the Ultrafine Clear Film OHP work okay with this printer?

Thanks,

Don

 

[sanking]

Sandy,

Does the Ultrafine Clear Film OHP work okay with this printer?

Thanks,

Don

Don,

Two issues.

First, if you print on the Ultrafine Clear Film with the black composite inks as you will definitely get pizza wheel marks. The Red and Green PDN colors are kind of iffy, in that I have made some negatives with both colors on Ultrafine with no marks, while on others I have seen a few marks.

However, there is apparently a fix that will allow you to get rid of the marks. It involves wrapping the pizza wheels with heat shrinking tubing and applying heat. I mentioned this in a previous message and posted a link to the site.

The second issue is that you will not get as much UV blocking density with the same RGB combination with Ultrafine as with Pictorico. For example, an RGB value of R-255, G-0, B-0 prints on Pictorico with a density of 2.55, on Ultrafine with a value of 2.10. To match the value on Ultrafine you have to go to R-255, G-100, B-0.

I really need to make the Ultrafine material work as I bought a large amount of this OHP in custom sizes to allow me to make same size prints from 7X17 and 12X20 negatives.

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Don,

There is third issue.

The very thin Ultrafine OHP will not feed well with the 9180, either through the main tray or via the special media platform. To make it work you really need to attach the Ultrafine to a thin piece of flat mylar and feed through the special media tray.

Sandy