Home made C41 reagent with color biased result

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by ahock, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I have collection some recipe of C41 from the web.
    But the result is weird....

    The film look like B&W film :sad:
    Here is the scan image of the film
    [​IMG]
    full size

    note: there have two film scanned. The dark one is film(Fuji NPH 400) with home-made C41, the other one is film(Kodak Gold 200) developed with Fuji Hunt kits.

    Here is the scan image :
    [​IMG]

    IDK what is going wrong. I will list out my recipe and protocol. Please give me some hint, thanks!

    Here is my recipe and protocol:

    DEVELOPER {reference}
    Water 800 ml
    Potassium carbonate 38 g
    Sodium sulfite 4.7 g
    Potassium bromide 1.5 g
    Kodak anti-cal (optional) 1 g
    Hydroxylamine sulfate 3.9 g
    CD4 5.9 g
    Potassium iodide 1 mg (or 1ml 0.1% solution)
    Acetic Acid to pH 10.00
    Water to make 1 liter


    Stop {reference: PE}
    Acetic acid glacial 20ml/L
    Sodium Sulfite 10 g/L
    Water to 1000ml
    Use between developer and bleach for 30 seconds 100F. This can prolong the life time of the bleach solution.

    Bleach {(there was a url link here which no longer exists)}

    Ammonium Bromide 50 g
    Ammonium Sulfite 10 g
    Diammonium EDTA 359g
    Ferric chloride 162g
    Disodium EDTA 10 g
    Adjust pH to 6.5 with Acetic Acit 28% and Ammonium Hydroxide solution as needed.

    Fixer {reference: PE}

    Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200 ml
    Ammonium Sulfite 10 g
    Disodium EDTA 10 g
    pH to 6.7 with either Ammonium Hydroxide or 28% acetic acid.
    Water to 1 liter. Use for 7 minutes at 100 F.
    pH range 6.5 - 6.8 for either solution at 20 degrees C (68F)
    Wash after the bleach for 5 mins and after the fix for 8 mins.

    Stabilizer {(there was a url link here which no longer exists)}
    3ml Formaldehyde (35-37%) and 3ml L-clear (surfactant product of Chugai photo) to make 500ml


    PROCESS TIMES (38 degree C)
    Pre wet with water 5 minutes
    Developer 3 minutes 25 seconds
    Stop 30 seconds
    Rinse 1 minutes x2
    Bleach 7 minutes
    Rinse 1 minutes x2
    Fix 7 minutes
    Rinse with Room temperature distill water for 6 minutes
    Stabilizer 2 minutes (Room temperature)

    I'm using Jobo 1520 tank. I pour in 500ml solution inside, and shaking continuously for the first minute. Shake method are upside down. upside down is one cycle, it is about 7 cycle for the first minute. Rest of the time are 30 seconds 1 cycle.

    Here is the image:
    [​IMG]

    I have check the solution temperature during the procedure.

    For the developer temp, it is ~ 37.9 degree C.
    For the bleach temp, it is ~ 37 degree C.
    For the Fixer temp, it is ~ 37 degree C.

    At last, I wonder could it be posible light leak problem?
    Please advice, thanks!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2009
  2. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

    Messages:
    2,722
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Location:
    Woonsocket,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I have a few comments and suggestions, but no definitive solution:

    • Your scan shows clear signs of surge marks -- the lighter areas at regular intervals along the top of the frame. This most likely indicates an agitation problem. From your description, it sounds like you're agitating quite slowly. Personally, I take about 1 or 1.5 seconds to invert the tank and return it upright.
    • I've never used the developer formula you've specified, but it looks similar to ones that I have used (a little more or less of this or that, but similar overall proportions). My results are fine.
    • The usual time for C-41 development is 3:15, not 3:25. I wouldn't expect this 10-second difference to cause the bad results you're seeing, though.
    • Your bleach formula is definitely weird. You might want to try something more conventional, like the bleach from your first reference or a commercial bleach. (I use Kodak or Silver Pixel bleach, which is less expensive than mixing it myself.) Alternatively, look into a blix, at least as a test to see if your bleach is causing the problems. There's a blix formula in your first reference, but I've never used that one. (In my experience, blixes produce inferior results to separate bleaches and fixers, but the problems are nowhere near as bad as what you're seeing.)
    • Your film strip photo makes it look like the film is badly fogged, so a light leak during processing is indeed a possibility that might be worth investigating. If you've processed using Fuji-Hunt chemicals in the same equipment, though, that seems unlikely, unless this was just a one-off error (removing the tank lid too soon, for instance -- you might try leaving it on through the end of the fixer stage, just to be sure).
     
  3. Domin

    Domin Member

    Messages:
    204
    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2006
    Location:
    Warszawa, Po
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    I can't help much with formulas but the strip looks similar to film which wasn't bleached. You mention that it has some b&w look which is true to at least some unbleached films.

    You might try to bleach and fix it with chemistry which is known to work properly. That could help pinpointing the problem. The streaks might too come from uneven bleaching in different emulsion layers.

    AFAIK C41 developer is intended for slow albeit constant agitation. I've read some people agitate less then constantly with good results but one inversion every 30 secs is less than usually recommended for b&w. Even if that was enough when using fuji developer it may be the problem with different one.
     
  4. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    28,421
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I can only suggest that the film looks foggy and overdeveloped. It also looks underbleached and/or underfixed.

    Can you scan it in larger size as a negative image?

    PE
     
  5. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks all!!!

    I will try to exclude the problem of light leak and agitation method first.

    However, here is the larger size of negative image: link (~ 500kb)

    Thanks!!!
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    28,421
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Looks like severe overdevelopment.

    PE
     
  7. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    PE, Thanks!
    I redone this with develop time set to 3' 15".
     
  8. mts

    mts Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    373
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Location:
    Los Alamos,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Aside from the unusual bleach formula, your formulae should produce a good result. Check that you measured properly and did not omit any components, and that you did properly set the pH value of the solutions. You are agitating way more than I normally use. In small tank development I agitate ~5 sec of every 30 sec by giving several inversion/rotation motions and the result is nice uniform processing. I usually use 3 min 30 sec for the developer preferring slightly more density. Did you bleach and fix by inspection? Perhaps you are not getting proper bleaching and fixing--the film edges appear not to be proper density either. Unexposed film should look just like the standard C-41 processing, i.e. it should be transparent and orange in color.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Maxwell, Thanks!!!

    I'm pretty sure the pH is correct. Actually, I have re-run the Bleach and fix. But, that doesn't help.

    I look closer to the negative, there have weird stripe on the sky. Moreover, the image also unusual grainy.
    [​IMG]

    I suspect that is the light leak result.

    I think I should return here with more testing and confirmation.

    Thanks!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  10. Domin

    Domin Member

    Messages:
    204
    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2006
    Location:
    Warszawa, Po
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Did you use the same bleach and fix?

    You mentioned that the neg looks like b&w, is there some metallic sheen to it or gray b&w looking fog?
     
  11. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Dear Domin,
    There have no metallic sheen on the negative. Thanks! :smile:

    Ahock
     
  12. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    My friend own a darkroom and he have some equipment. He have a control strip from kodak and a densitometer to check the result.

    To rule out what is going wrong, I try to use a known work product from the market. I choose Fuji hunt as my control group. I try to use different combination with my home brew recipe and fuji hunt.

    Here is the control strip result. The develop composition as follow(from up to down):
    a: developer: semi-official; time: 3:15s | Bleach: Fuji Hunt; time: 6min | Fix: Fuji Hunt; time: 6min

    b: developer: Fuji Hunt CN-16S; time: 3:15s | Bleach: PE formula; time: 7min | Fix: PE formula; time 7min

    c: developer: 'Photo Techniques' ; time: 3:15s | Bleach: Fuji Hunt; time: 6min |Fix: Fuji Hunt; time: 6min

    note: develop C is same as describe before. Bleach and fix of B are same as describe before.

    [​IMG]

    I also check this film under densitometer and record it as excel file(download).
    I don't know how to interpret the result.
    Does they tell us whether the developer is good? or Bleach, or something about fix?

    Despite don't know how to intepret the reading data of densitometer. The developed difference of recipe a and recipe C are quite obvious. compare the components, the only difference are the Potasium Iodide(recipe a is 10x greater than recipe c ).

    Please advice, thanks!

    --------------------
    Semi-official C41(provided by Maxwell)
    cf. P. Dignan, “The Chemistry of Photography Vol. II (Preston publ.: Niles, IL) 1987, p.24.


    This is a reliable formula that produces consistently good results with different brands of C-41 film. Always test the film you wish to process using the MacBeth chart as a guide and evaluate your results carefully.


    Water 80-90F 500 ml

    Sod. Sulfite anhyd. 4.7 g

    Antical #3 1% solution 100 ml

    Pot. Carbonate anhyd. 38 g

    Pot. Iodide 0.2% soln. 5 ml

    Pot. Bromide 1.5 g

    Hydroxylamine sulfate (HAS) 3.9 g

    CD-4 5.0 g

    Water to make 1 liter


    Set pH 10.0 @ 80F using sulfuric acid or sod. hydroxide 10% solutions.

    Shelf life 1 month for unused developer. At least 1-2 weeks for partially used developer.

    Note: Sod. sulfite is identical in action to sod. metabisulfite (cf. D. Neville, SuperBull, #22, p.8). If desired, the quantity specified can be adjusted to allow for the difference in molecular weight.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  13. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

    Messages:
    2,722
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Location:
    Woonsocket,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Those "weird stripes" are what I referred to in my earlier message as being signs of surge marks. If those marks align with the sprocket holes in the film, then the cause is not a light leak; it's improper agitation.

    Concerning your tests reported in a later post, it does appear that there's something wrong with your C-41 formula, since that formula, used with the Fuji-Hunt bleach and fix, produces the worst results of the lot. Your middle strip, with the Fuji-Hunt developer and home-brew bleach and fixer, appears to be a little dark. I suspect the bleach. (Unless I've gotten confused, the formula to which you referred is not attributable to this forum's Photo Engineer (PE), although he did comment on it in the relevant thread. It's a very unusual bleach formula, so I recommend treating it with suspicion. I haven't checked the source of your fixer formula.)

    As to the main problem of the developer, I can't offer any really solid suggestion for changes. My suspicion is that you mis-measured something, which resulted in the developer being far too active or otherwise causing problems. Alternatively, perhaps some component is contaminated or isn't what you believed it to be. Check the labels to be sure you're using what you should be using. If you've only mixed one batch of developer, I suggest you mix another batch and try again. If you've mixed more than one batch, then try another formula. If that also fails, then try replacing your component chemicals with new sources one at a time until you find the one that's bad.
     
  14. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Ya, PE is Photo Engineer. May be I should do a quick test with the bleach. I will post the result later.

    Thanks!!!
     
  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    28,421
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The post I made on Ferric Chloride bleach with Ammonium EDTA was made in response to someonelses post on that formula, it is not one I endorse. I suggest using Ammonium Ferric EDTA + an excess of EDTA with other ingredients. Otherwise, you do risk having problems with retained iron salts.

    It looks like your developer is the problem. In the previous post you used 5.9 g/l of CD-4 and in the post above you use 4.9 g/l of CD-4. I'm confused. Neither is correct. Which did you use?

    PE
     
  16. stefan4u

    stefan4u Member

    Messages:
    167
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Dear ahok !!

    Last autumn I mixed a few batches of color chemistry too, beside the fact that this is really time consuming, it can be done.

    This “photo techniques” formulation is much too strong, overdevelopment will follow. Reduce the amount of CD4, in my eyes reduce potash too and be very careful about the Ph!! My personal aim is 10.10 till 10.15 at 25°C. Increase the KJ to 1.2 till1.4 mg/litre
    CD4 can vary from 4,7g/litre till 5.3g/litre depending on pH and temperature (in the drum!)
    I’ve made better experiences with less HAS, less sulphite but slightly increased KJ

    But talking is easy, a real cascade of other minor changes will have done if you change only one parameter… (Do you have a calibrated Ph meter, measuring the ph at 25°C without turbulences in the fluid?)

    Maybe you can try my “C-27” formulation Link:

    (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

    This is for sure not perfect, but better than the “photo techniques brew”. Basically it’s quite good if you have your temperatures under control. Please do not skip the bicarbonate, this moderates the pH (beside Potash, sulphite, HAS and CD4…)

    If you DO have a (measured) temperature of 38°C (100°F) in the developing drum 30 seconds after poured the developer in, you can reduce the amount of CD4 a bit, 4.8 g/litre is a good starting point, but again watch out for the ph…

    Regards,
    Stefan
     
  17. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    PE,
    Thanks for clarify!
    In the first post, I'm using developer from 'Photo Techniques'. It is 5.9g/l. In the second post, I have used 3 kind of developer to develop the control strip. They are 'semi-official'(CD4 5.0g/l), 'Fuji hunt' (commercial) and 'Photo Techniques'(5.9g/l).

    Moreover, I also done a mistake on adjust the pH. Maxwell(forum's mts) remind me about this. I'm using HCl as my acid to set the pH. I will correct this on the next try. Thanks!

    Stefan,
    I have borrow the pH meter from a chemist, so I think that is reliable :smile: .
    I will try out your recipe ASAP!! Thanks!
    In your experiment, you have check your negative under densitometer. Could you please explain how to use the information of this sheet(http://s7b.directupload.net/file/u/14053/dskihet8_jpg.htm)? I also curious about yours test film, how did you prepare yours test film? Thanks!!!
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber
    Ads Enabled

    Messages:
    28,421
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ok. The 5.9 g/l of CD-4 is your problem!!!

    PE
     
  19. OP
    OP
    ahock

    ahock Member

    Messages:
    37
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2009
  20. stefan4u

    stefan4u Member

    Messages:
    167
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
    High ahock !!

    Yes I know, my sheets are a bit strange...:rolleyes:
    At first I’ve used them for chromes, that is why the R-G and B-G areas are there. This is not usual for negative processing, but gives you a hint about parallelism of the color curves.

    You are much luckier than me, I can’t (won’t) afford these real control strips. In general I take pictures of a Jobo test pattern (6 gray scales and 6 color fields) at ambient light around noon. You may suspect some variances, and you are right, but in a certain way these test negs are comparative within minor deviances, because I watch out for a sunny moment at scattered clouds, take always the same lens etc. Exposure time is measured (and locked) “TTL “ with a 18% greycard.

    Dmax Density of the light exposed film tip
    Dmin Density of the mask
    Feld 1 (field 1) is the densest pattern (white in original) and should be equal to HD.
    Feld 2 till Feld 5 (field 2 till field 5) grayscale (reflective density in Original 0.4, 0.7, 1.0, 1.3 ) field 5 should be equal to LD. Feld 2 (field 2) is wrongly labeled as “HD”
    Feld 6 (field 6) is black in original (reflective density 1.7)

    The higher values are absolute values, the lower values in a box are measured by zeroing the densitometer to the mask (this is for me only:smile:)

    My personal reference is one of these test patterns developed by a quite good minilab in town, which does have only minor deviances of the color curve parallelism, they really do care about their machine!
    As told before, the formulation does not claim to be perfect, but give (in my eyes) wonderful prints with no visible color shifts/crossovers.

    This may be different with other Film material. Personally preferred are more soft working developers, like the original Flexicolor, which gives me High densities for Blue just over 2 and a steady contrast under my home processing conditions.

    Regards,
    Stefan
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies. If you have a Photrio account, please log in (and select 'stay logged in') to prevent recurrence of this notice.