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wiseowl

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Sep 14, 2003
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S Wales
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4x5 Format
Have finally taken the plunge.

After many years of prevaricating I have finally taken the plunge and got into LF. I am now the proud, if somewhat bewildered owner of a Linhof Karden monorail with a 90mm Schneider angulon. A big thanks to whoever it was suggested I visit Mr Cad in Croyden, that place is something of an Aladin's cave but the staff were very helpful (and patient). On the downside I ended up going way over budget so I'm in the good lady's dog house.

First impressions, it's bl**dy difficult to load darkslides! My first attempt resulted in 2 wasted sheets, both of which ended up in the darkslide tracks, one of which came out with the slide the other ended up on the outside after exposing. C'est la vie I'm hoping it will get easier with practice.

I find it very difficult to see all of the image on the g/g, I can only make out a circle of about 1.5". Allthough going in close with a lupe helps me to see the edges, would a fresnell screen help to even out the light?

I bought a box of 10 sheets, Rollei R3 film, this is tight in some of my darkslides and won't fit in others. It's about a 32nd larger than some old sheets I had to practice with. Is this a common problem?

Any tips/tricks for loading darkslides will be much appreciated.

Thanks all, I don't doubt I'll have some more silly questions as I start to learn the ropes,

Martin
 

rbarker

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Congrats, Martin.

With wide-angle lenses, you'll find that you may need to position your eyes off to the side, in line with the spread of light from the lens, to see into the corners. Longer focal lengths will illuminate the GG more evenly.

As to loading holders, I only pull the darkslide out far enough to expose the opening gate of the film track. I feel that with my left hand (thumb and middle finger) and then guide the film in with my right hand.
 

Dan Fromm

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Prevaricating, procrastinating, or both? Lies or sloth?
 

Bob F.

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I pull the slide about 1/3 of the way out, give a quick blast of canned air, and lay the holder flat on the table with the loading flap to the right (I'm right handed). I slip the film in from the right, holding the flap back with my left hand thumb and middle finger. If the film does not go in the proper guide slot, it soon bumps against the darkslide and I know to try again. You soon get the hang of it and I rarely have to re-try and have not mis-loaded since I read about only pulling the darkslide part way when loading.

Can't help re' the Rollie film as I've never used it, but there are standards for film sizes and if it does not fit, send it back.

Two points about the 90mm Schneider: you say it is a "Angulon" - are you sure it is not a "Super Angulon"? A 90mm Angulon will not cover 4x5 very well (http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/angulon/data/6,8-90mm.html). Assuming a Super Angulon, yes a Fresnel lens would help, but will not eliminate the problem entirely - it's something you just have to live with with wide angle lenses and ground glass screens...

Cheers, Bob.
 

Ole

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"Kflift" is the sound of a sheet of film falling out of the holder and flopping down into the bellows just as you thought you'd taken the best picture ever.

Don't waste your wasted sheets, use them to practice in daylight. Then practice in subdued light with your eyes closed. I can tell you how I load my film, but I recommend you find the way that works for you.

BTW, the plain Angulon does cover 4x5". But only at f:32 and smaller. Some very old ones even cover 5x7" in a pinch! But the newer ones don't.
 

photomc

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Congratulations Martin...yeah, loading film was a wonderment to me when I started (and that was just two years ago - with 4x5, now have 5x7 and 8x10!!). The way I learned, was to waste a sheet - which was not hard, did that without trying, and load - unload in daylight, then when I was comfortable with that, did the same thing with my eyes closed - but lights still on in case I needed to "see" why I could not load, finally went "into the dark" (eyes still close to this day) and have not lost a sheet since then.

Enjoy your new world...it's still film, camera and lens...but it is soooo much different IMO. Hope you have a blast.
 

Joe Lipka

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Keep the ruined film. Now you see how to load the film in daylight. Practice doing this in daylight. Do it fifteen or twenty times. No, make it thirty times. Each time you do this make sure that you have set your film boxes, loaded holders and unloaded holders in the same spot every time.

Then, do it in room light with your eyes closed. Again do it about thirty times.

Then do it in the dark room with the lights off. Put your film box in one spot. Put your holders in another spot. Load and unload thirty times. (Yes, eyes closed and in the dark. By this time, you won't be able to do it any other way.)

Then you will be ready to load your film flawlessly from now until you decide to quit.
 

John_Brewer

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Welcome to the wonderful world of large format Martin. Mr. Cad is a cracking place isn't it? You can get really cheap (less than £5) fresnel sheets that are used for reading newspapers and books. Try places like Stationery Box or eBay. Bluetak it to your GG to compose and remove it when foccusing. I can lend you an old, but fine working, 7 1/2 inch for a couple of months if you want to try something longer, you will need to make a lensboard though.

J
 
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wiseowl

wiseowl

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Finally taken the plunge.

I've finally taken the plunge after years of dithering about. I am now the proud, if somewhat bemused, owner of a Linhof Karden monorail with a Schneider super angulon 90mm on the front. My thanks Jim Brewer who suggested I visit MrCad, the place is something of an Aladins cave and I found the staff both helpful and patient. On the downside I went way over budget and am now in the doghouse with wifey.

My first impressions are that this is going to be much more difficult to get used to than I anticipated. I'm struggling to get to grips with the gg image, I'm only getting a hot spot and haven't quite sorted out getting a view of the whole image in one view. Secondly, darkslides are a b***st*** to load. My first attempt has resulted in 2 ruined sheets. Both of which ended up in the darkslide slot and not the film slot. What hasn't helped is that the film I bought is slightly larger than the sheets I had to practice with (bby about 1mm). To the point where I cannot get them in Toyo holders even in the light, the film will fit in Fidelity slides however, even if they're a little tight. Any tips, tricks or trade secrets about loading darkslides will be warmly welcomed.

Hopefully I'll get to actually expose some film tomorrow.

Cheers

Martin
 

jovo

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Ha....! Good for you! LF is very rewarding and a lot of fun even if the initial steps are a bit dicey. I'm sure everyone on this forum who uses LF has had experiences similar to yours or worse, but eventually it all becomes second nature and you'll wonder what the initial fuss was all about. In fact, I would guess that autoeverything filmcams and digicams are far harder to master.

First: don't take the darkslide out of the holder...just pull it back enough to allow the film to slide in. (Decide in the first place, which you're going to identify as unexposed-blackside or whiteside out-and put them in that way.)

Then: with the notches on the upper right side, slide the film in with the film holder facing you upside down, i.e. top of dark slide on bottom.

Finally: check that the film is in the right track by sliding your finger along the edge of the film area to determine if you can feel a ridge or not. If you can feel the outer ridge of the film groove, slide the darkslide back in and turn the little metal L shaped stops to assure you that the darkslide is in all the way and won't accidentally pull out.

Done

Have fun. Now go make up with your wife. Jewelry, a constant mantra of: "Yes dear!", and always putting the seat down (you wimpy, pussywhipped doormat, you) will go a looooong way toward reestablishing peace.
 

ggriffi

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Martin,

Keep those two sheets and use them to practice,practice,practice. That's what I did when I started about three months ago and it made a world of difference.

g
 

John Kasaian

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Sep 24, 2002
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1,021
g is right. Those are you sacrificial sheets. Practice with the lights on. Then practice with your eyes closed.You only need to pull the darkslide about an inch or so (whats that in metric?) to expose the rails---the ones for the film! Make it easy on yourself and pull the dark slides and if they aren't too stiff, open the flaps and stack your holder with the lights on. Then turn out the lights, insert your film, slide home the dark slides, twiddle with the locking ells and stack 'em up. Piece of cake!
Welcome the LF!
 

voceumana

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When I was in high school I saw the ads for the Calumet 4x5 view for $99 (it's was awhile ago), got their brochure, and KNEW it was the type of camera for me.

In college, I got one, and a couple of sheet film holders. I didn't even think about loading the film, and just did it. The first time, the film seemed to "jump" into the right place. If I had thought about it, I'm sure it would have been more difficult. Practice in daylight with some spoiled film, and it will become easy in a hurry. But get some different film. All 4x5 film I've ever used fits easily under the film holding lips. Any film that were 1mm wider would have trouble fitting in my holders, so I think your film is your problem.

FYI, I find my Lisco holders are easier to UNLOAD than some Fidelity holders. The recessed area on the Lisco (at the film end) makes it easier to get under the film. The Fidelity holders are older ones, though. Don't know about current ones.

If you've got image problems on the GG, make sure the lens is close enough to the GG to focus, and aperture is fully open.

Make sure the camera is level and locked--no shifts, no tilts, no slides, no raised or lowered lensboard or back. Those can cause limited images. You will find, though, that unless you have bag bellows, it's hard to work with 90mm on a 4x5 camera. I can't do any shifts or tilts with mine on either of my 4x5's because the bellows limits motion.

If your lens can't cover the 4x5 GG fully and easily with the camera in neutral position, something is wrong with the lens--maybe a missing back element, or something wierd. A 90 Super Angulon (or even Angulon) can cover 4x5, though the Angulon just covers it with nothing to spare.

FYI, you probably will want a longer lens in additon to the 90.

Charlie
 

Jeff Dyck

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Feb 13, 2004
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Dryden, Onta
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wiseowl said:
<snip> I'm struggling to get to grips with the gg image, I'm only getting a hot spot and haven't quite sorted out getting a view of the whole image in one view. <snip>
Martin
Hi Martin,

Your problems with a "hotspot" and not seeing the whole image at once on the ground glass is more than likely a reflection of your choice of lens. A 90mm Super-Angulon lens (especially if you have the f8 version) is a fantastic lens, but would not be my first choice for a beginner for exactly the reasons you mention + it will be relatively dim on the ground glass. Now - if you can convince your wife that you also need to purchase a bright (i.e. f5.6) 210mm, you will undoubtedly have an easier time focussing and visualizing the image. Once you get some practice, I am sure you will find it easier with the 90mm S.A...
 

seadrive

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Aug 8, 2005
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East Marion,
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As others have said, practice loading film in the light, first with eyes open, then with eyes closed, until you can do it with ease.

What I do is to pull the darkslide back a couple of inches, then spread the thumb and middle finger of my left hand (I'm right-handed) across the film holder, until I've located the front edge of the film rail on each side of the holder. That gives your right hand a target to aim for, and makes it very easy to tell if the film is sliding under or over the rail. If it's over, you'll feel the film passing underneath your fingers.

Best of luck!

Oh yeah, anyone who has been involved in LF photography for more than five minutes knows all about the "way overbudget" deal. :surprised:

Steve
 
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wiseowl

wiseowl

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2003
Messages
423
Location
S Wales
Format
4x5 Format
Thanks for the tips and support.

I spent more time today practising with the old sheets, and have managed to load the darkslide properly. The tip about leaving the slide half way in helped and seems obvious once mentioned.

Managed to get a spare hour to play with the camera in daylight, not easy at this time of year. Had more success with viewing the screen today, it felt much more comfortble if not entirely "right". Exposed a couple of sheets and had a bash at tray developing, went more or less OK allthough I think I've scratched one of the negs. I'm putting it down to inexperience for now as I did get into a knot a couple of times. All in all very rewarding and I'm finding it reminiscent of my first experiences with film many years ago. Great fun.

voceumana: Thanks for the advice about the lens, using it today with front rise there's no sign of vignetting on the neg, so it must be covering OK right?.

Jeff Dyck: The 210mm is on the shopping list, but not just yet. Got to let the good lady cool down a bit.

Time permitting I'll get the negs printed tomorrow, can't wait. I'll post the results, must remember to renew my membership.
 
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wiseowl

wiseowl

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Sep 14, 2003
Messages
423
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S Wales
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4x5 Format
Oops, just found this post. I thought I'd posted this in the LF forum, and then couldn't find it so posted it again. Doh!
 

voceumana

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Aug 4, 2004
Messages
896
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USA (Utah)
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wiseowl said:
voceumana: Thanks for the advice about the lens, using it today with front rise there's no sign of vignetting on the neg, so it must be covering OK right?.

A 90mm Super Angulon will have no trouble covering 4x5, so your coverage should be just fine. The f/8 90mm SA has an image circle of 215mm, and 4x5 requires about 163mm, so you have plenty of extra.

I've only tried developing sheet film in trays once or twice, and recommend a Jobo 2500 system or other 4x5 daylight tank. I use inversion agitation with the 2500, but it requires a LOT of liquid to do this way.

My first sheet film daylight tank was a Yankee, and I can't really recommend those--don't even know if they still make them.

Charlie
 

Bob F.

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Oct 4, 2004
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If you are getting shift without problems then you presumably have the Super Angulon version (it should say so on the lens) so no worries there. I bought my 1st LF gear at Mr. Cad too (and my sink and loads of other odds and sods) - as an Aladdin's Cave, it takes some beating...

Have fun, and don't forget the UK meeting in the Dales in April!

Cheers, Bob.
 
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wiseowl

wiseowl

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Sep 14, 2003
Messages
423
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S Wales
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Kevin Caulfield said:
I saw the title of the thread and assumed that you got engaged. :wink:

Getting engaged was much easier, far more local choice for me to browse;-)

Bob F said:
Have fun, and don't forget the UK meeting in the Dales in April!
Unfortunately I'm not able to make the Dales meet, I'll be keeping an eye on when and where the next on is though.

voceumana: Thanks for responding about the lens and for the tips on dev tanks. I'll have to stick to tray for now, film is top of my purchasing list, without that the camera is just an expesive doorstop.

Cheers

Martin
 
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