Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[Flighter]

The below is a summary of employee numbers (Engaged in R&D and total number of employees) and fixed asset additions to the two categories of 'assets under construction' and 'plant and machinery' disclosed in the Harman Technology accounts for the last 10 years. Of note is that in 2021 there was a reclassification from 'assets under construction' to 'computer systems' of £644,502.

Year ended	R&D e'ees	Total e'ees	Assets under construction	Plant & machinery
31/12/22	21	197	£540,467	£0
31/12/21	23	192	£709,089	£278,011
31/12/20	23	201	£224,278	£0
31/12/19	23	198	£732,682	£0
31/12/18	22	192	£390,225	£0
31/12/17	20	181	£214,798	£0
31/12/16	19	181	£175,147	£0
31/12/15	23	197	£159,302	£0
31/12/14	23	202	£244,037	£0
31/12/13	24	210	£230,168	£161,971

 

[ags2mikon]

Looking at the prices on ebay for 220 film backs it must be 220 film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Well, perhaps. I think come 1 December, we'll see. And if they managed this, I will be impressed for sure. It has always seemed like an unlikely scenario to me given the complexities involved.

Or, I might say "I hope you're right". As I've said before, another manufacturer of a functional C41 color film would be very welcome. It's clear present demand is not being met very well.

PS: the work in Marly AFAIK pertained only to dye destruction technology. Ilford's forays in E6 and CN technology were back in the 1960s, so I wonder how much currently relevant knowledge for a C41 color product would exist at Harman. Unless they've accumulated it recently, of course. There's always that possibility.

They made EP-2 and RA-4 paper on both film (ie opaque Ilfo/Cibachrome base & transparent/ translucent) and regular RC substrates. The opaque polyester base material was Ilfocolor Deluxe.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Looking at the prices on ebay for 220 film backs it must be 220 film.

I was about to buy some 220 backs a few weeks ago on the prospect that this was the case, but I decided it really isn't likely. Just not enough volume and 220 was really only heavy shooters (commercial shooters) back in the day anyway. For every roll of 220 I sold, I sold 20 or more 120 film probably. But the 220 shooters would buy them in bricks...

 

[MCB18]

Looking at the prices on ebay for 220 film backs it must be 220 film.

Sadly, 220 isn’t happening, we know this for sure. If it was possible, we would have 400D in 220.

I was about to buy some 220 backs a few weeks ago on the prospect that this was the case, but I decided it really isn't likely. Just not enough volume and 220 was really only heavy shooters (commercial shooters) back in the day anyway. For every roll of 220 I sold, I sold 20 or more 120 film probably. But the 220 shooters would buy them in bricks...

Get 220 backs regardless, they work fine for 120. And yeah, us 220 shooters absolutely would buy the stuff in bricks (I bought 5 rolls of Aerocolor in 220 from Reflx… lol)

 

[koraks]

They made EP-2 and RA-4 paper

I didn't know that. But I'd still point out that this is quite different technology from C41, and in particular far less complex.

 

[mshchem]

Suppliers can provide quite a bit of expertise if they think there's going to be sales. Not secret formulas but general direction. Working in the appliance manufacturing industry, supplier sales guys were notorious for sharing activities of our competitors.
Hopefully we will see a magnificent new product. If they want to make color film I think they are capable.

 

[Agulliver]

The nice folks at Harman have always told anyone who asked that they lack the knowledge and equipment to make colour film. Up-thread someone said that the Harman coating machine can do 5 layers, with C41 colour film needing a minimum of 15 layers. And XP2 is irrelevant because isn't it just three layers? And without a lot of the tech that goes into C41 colour films.

But,....that info is a little out of date, pre-pandemic I think. So it is not impossible that they've spent a lot of effort in the last 3 years on colour film and cracked it. But the folk at Inoviscoat, who had equipment and relevant knowledge haven't after years of trying. And in the entire history of the photo film industry only Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Sakura/Konica and maybe the old Ferrania ever perfected C41 colour film. Whereas there were plenty of decent B&W film manufacturers and people even today can make B&W emulsions at home on glass plates.

If Harman really have achieved moving from B&W only to making a decent C41 film of saleable quality in just a few years.....it will be a feat unique in the photo industry. But, it's looking like they at least believe that's what they've done. And I really hope they have. Because someone to fill the gaps in amateur 35mm colour film that Kodak and Fuji currently cannot would be great, as would one more sizeable company in the colour film game.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

The nice folks at Harman have always told anyone who asked that they lack the knowledge and equipment to make colour film. Up-thread someone said that the Harman coating machine can do 5 layers, with C41 colour film needing a minimum of 15 layers. And XP2 is irrelevant because isn't it just three layers? And without a lot of the tech that goes into C41 colour films.

But,....that info is a little out of date, pre-pandemic I think. So it is not impossible that they've spent a lot of effort in the last 3 years on colour film and cracked it. But the folk at Inoviscoat, who had equipment and relevant knowledge haven't after years of trying. And in the entire history of the photo film industry only Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Sakura/Konica and maybe the old Ferrania ever perfected C41 colour film. Whereas there were plenty of decent B&W film manufacturers and people even today can make B&W emulsions at home on glass plates.

If Harman really have achieved moving from B&W only to making a decent C41 film of saleable quality in just a few years.....it will be a feat unique in the photo industry. But, it's looking like they at least believe that's what they've done. And I really hope they have. Because someone to fill the gaps in amateur 35mm colour film that Kodak and Fuji currently cannot would be great, as would one more sizeable company in the colour film game.

Also, lets keep this on context: Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Sakura/Konica (and probably Ferrania) managed to perfect color film IN THE PEAK OF COLOR FILM INDUSTRY. The demand for color film could justify the huge time/money spend on research/development at the time. Good color film is very difficult to do, and, to be honest, if great color image is needed, current digital images are a pretty tough opponent. Although demand for color film has increased recently, it is not near the demand level of time gone.

Like so many others, I hope I'm wrong but seriously doubt a new color film is going to be the announcement.

 

[bfilm]

There still seems to be doubt among some that it is color film, but what else could it be? Harman have essentially confirmed that it is a new 135 format film. I agree with many others that it seems very unlikely they would make a black and white film outside of Ilford Photo. That leaves color film.

I think another good color reversal film would be nice to have, but the general opinion seems to be that color negative film would be the more popular film for them. This still leaves the question of high-grade accurate color film or some sort of novelty color film.

I would very much hope that Harman would stick with making high-grade film, but if the doubts by some about their ability to make high-grade color film are true, I suppose that could mean that Harman have decided to enter the questionable world of novelty film.

Personally, I still think Harman would be capable of making high-grade color film if they had the desire and resources to put towards it. The knowledge exists. It is not like this has never been done before. And they already have a significant manufacturing base into which it sounds like they have been further investing a lot in the last few years.

 

[Flighter]

I hope it is colour film but the numbers employed in their R&D department have remained pretty much the same over the last 10 years. Over that period they have spent around £4m on plant and other fixed assets of which £2.9m was in the last 5 years. Assuming some of this is replacing existing equipment it seems pretty low, based on what I've read, for the step change that colour film would entail. But we'll see in 11 days time I guess.

 

[pbromaghin]

I think we're also forgetting that (unlike other operations), Ilford would not be going from a standing start and already has significant institutional knowledge about key elements relating to scavengers, dye ballasting etc - what they will have lacked is the specific knowledge for integrating extant capabilities into a colour material - and I would add that that was always the effective message of their corporate response - to the effect of 'not right now, we lack specific knowledge [from recall, they never said a lack of capacity in terms of manufacturing components or finished product], but if the right people happened to become available...' That they have significant experience with CD4 couplers also counts very strongly against it being anything other than a colour neg stock if it is indeed a colour film. I think we often underestimate Ilford's abilities in areas like controlled crystal growth technology precisely because they don't make colour products.

Whatever it is is quite likely towards the upper end of the 100-400 range, and probably isn't a deep IR sensitised B&W material.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of their having hired an engineer or two away from any of the current color manufacturers. And I don't see why, if it is color film, they would settle for a consumer level ColorPlus competitor. I know this is waaaaaayyyy out there, but why not aim for a 400 iso Ektar? That would knock everybody's sox off and more than justify all the hype.

 

[Agulliver]

Adding to what @bfilm says above....what else could it be? And why might it be colour film after all?

The evidence points to film, not only the shared image on social media but the photographer specifically stating that he was testing a new film for Harman that he couldn't talk about for a few weeks.

Harman are arguably better than anyone else at B&W film. So it could be a new B&W film, but between the Ilford and Kentmere range they have every single base covered. There's one slight gap in that there's nothing with a box speed of 800 or 1600 but one can easily make HP5+, Delta 400 do those speeds and Delta 3200 can do 1600. And if they did produce Delta 1600 or HP6 1600....wouldn't they be able to call it Ilford or Kentmere? And would that be worthy of a whole new brand, with associated trademarks registered, whole new website to itself and social media accounts? I feel the same about any potential hyper speed B&W film, like if they manufactured something with a box speed of 12800.

SO we are back to colour film, no matter how unlikely...that's where the evidence appears to point. Kodak and Fuji are able to manufacture sufficient E6 material to cover the current and projected future demand. They also both make superb quality products. Kodak is able to keep up to demand for the pro C41 films Portra and Ektar. The gap here is amateur C41 films where Kodak cannot push out enough Color Plus and Ultramax in 35mm to satisfy demand from new/younger film photographers who are driving the film resurgence. Fuji appear to have severe problems stepping in as they're getting Kodak to coat their C41 film now. And nobody else is in the game currently. There's a real gap real sales volume to be achieved with a decent quality, competitively priced, reliable 200 or 400ISO C41 film aimed at amateurs.

It could still be something else. But that's where the winds seem to be blowing. Despite the difficulties involved in achieving a position where they can manufacture such a product. Another gimmicky, not quite right C41 film isn't going to sell heavily and there are already a few of those. Not knocking those who use them, but it would be a real gamble for Harman to put all this effort into a gimmick film.

 

[cerber0s]

I think the marketing strategy here is brilliant. So far the entire campaign has cost Harman the price of a logo, a few social media posts, and a couple of tickets to California. If this isn’t a color film though, a lot of people will be very disappointed. Business schools around the world will be using this as an example of how not to sell a new product, unless you can live up to the hype you created.

 

[pentaxuser]

I hope it is colour film but the numbers employed in their R&D department have remained pretty much the same over the last 10 years. Over that period they have spent around £4m on plant and other fixed assets of which £2.9m was in the last 5 years. Assuming some of this is replacing existing equipment it seems pretty low, based on what I've read, for the step change that colour film would entail. But we'll see in 11 days time I guess.

Yes that's what struck me as well when I saw your earlier post. We can only wait and see

pentaxuser

 

[bfilm]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of their having hired an engineer or two away from any of the current color manufacturers. And I don't see why, if it is color film, they would settle for a consumer level ColorPlus competitor. I know this is waaaaaayyyy out there, but why not aim for a 400 iso Ektar? That would knock everybody's sox off and more than justify all the hype.

Yes, I think a professional-grade color film on traditional acetate base would be the best-case scenario. Either color reversal or color negative would be interesting. I have a liking for color reversal film and also the days when most good publishing was using color reversal film, photomultiplier tube drum scans, and offset lithography printing. But color negative film is more popular nowadays and has the advantage of the possibility of making analog darkroom prints.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Platinotype paper!
Yes, please!

 

[Oldwino]

Why couldn't be color, C-41 film, but custom manufactured by someone else? Seems to all the rage these days...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I've been noticing a few posts deleted for being "off topic". How can anything manage to be off topic in this thread?...

More importantly, why are off-topic posts deleted when the "Forum Rules" say nothing that would prohibit them?

 

[pentaxuser]

A Dutch star-chef just started recently to serve crow. It seems to be quite common in Scotland.

Yes a famous Scottish writer called Iain Banks even wrote a book called the Crow Road

pentaxuser

 

[bfilm]

Why couldn't be color, C-41 film, but custom manufactured by someone else? Seems to all the rage these days...

Hopefully not. I think Harman has said it is not a collaboration. And I think many of us are also hoping this new film represents new manufacturing capability in the film world, which of course a collaboration would not. Having someone else make the film wouldn't provide any true broadening and strengthening of what films are being made and offered like having an additional manufacturer of color film would.

 

[Prest_400]

Wild speculation again: For those that brought up a ISO400 E6 film, there is actually some unfinished business there:
In 2022 JCH (Bellamy) announced that they were going to commercialise a new E6 400 film, "Fugufilm", supposedly manufactured by another player than Fuji or Kodak and originating as a new formula. Apparently commercialization stalled due to soared toll manufacturing costs.
Inovis has been doing a lot for the Orwo et al films, and most possibly was the partner for JCH, but but?

My point is, there was an effort to manufacture an E6 ISO400 film that is alright-ish and the recipe is out there without knowing who created it.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

There still seems to be doubt among some that it is color film, but what else could it be? Harman have essentially confirmed that it is a new 135 format film. I agree with many others that it seems very unlikely they would make a black and white film outside of Ilford Photo. That leaves color film.

I think another good color reversal film would be nice to have, but the general opinion seems to be that color negative film would be the more popular film for them. This still leaves the question of high-grade accurate color film or some sort of novelty color film.

but if the doubts by some about their ability to make high-grade color film are true, I suppose that could mean that Harman have decided to enter the questionable world of novelty film.

Personally, I still think Harman would be capable of making high-grade color film if they had the desire and resources to put towards it. The knowledge exists. It is not like this has never been done before. And they already have a significant manufacturing base into which it sounds like they have been further investing a lot in the last few years.

I would very much hope that Harman would stick with making high-grade film,!!

Me too and black and white at that.
Stick to what works KISS!!

Becoming too stretched out and competing against an energetic but limited market could be the death of black and white photography.

TB

 

[bfilm]

I would very much hope that Harman would stick with making high-grade film,!!

Me too and black and white at that.
Stick to what works KISS!!

Becoming too stretched out and competing against an energetic but limited market could be the death of black and white photography.

Yes, it would not be smart for Harman to do this to the detriment of their black and white films and papers. But I think Harman knows that and would not risk such a cost. I think this has probably been carefully considered by Harman, and this new pursuit will be done incrementally as they gauge how it goes.

 

[MattKing]

More importantly, why are off-topic posts deleted when the "Forum Rules" say nothing that would prohibit them?

Sometimes that short space available in the visible part of the "Reason" field just doesn't do justice to the actual reason that posts get moderated.
"Off topic" is often shorthand for "Off topic and likely to mess up the thread", or my favorite, "Off topic because it is a comment about moderation, not the subject of the thread itself".