HABS photographers Fuji-Acros vs. Tmax

Schafphoto · Nov 21, 2007

Just found out from Fuji that the Acros 100 4x5 quickloads are not on a polyester base and therefore do not qualify for the most stringent Library of Congress archival standards (500 years). Maybe this is old news to HABS-HAER photographers, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I was hoping to use the ACROS quickloads for a couple of projects. looks like i'll be shooting the TMAX readyloads (on Estar thick base).

Here is the response from FUJI:
Dear Mr. Schafer,

Thank you for contacting FUJIFILM, USA's Helpdesk Center. Please allow
us to assist you.
Acros 4x5 black & white quickload film is a cellulose triacelate base.

removed account4 · Nov 21, 2007

hi there

this is good to know, thanks!
i never submit other than tmax and occasionally plus x ..
knowing what is not allowed helps,
at least now i know ilford is still good

good luck with your project!

john

Besk · Nov 21, 2007

Maybe since Efke and Rollei 's 120 films are on a polyester base they will be acceptable for some HABS-HAER work? Sorta kidding!

Ray Heath · Nov 22, 2007

g'day all

plz explain HABS-HAER

removed account4 · Nov 22, 2007

hi ray

habs/haer is the historic american building survey / historic american engineering record.
in the united states if a property is 50 years old, possesses historic
significance a red flag goes up if there is a state / federally planned,
designed or paid for project ( highway projects too ). there is a review
process called section 106 review, which is the historic preservation part of
the environmental assessment. if a property has enough significance
the government asks for a detailed written report, 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10 format
negatives and contact prints ( all archival &C ) and sometimes measured\drawings.
these are all submitted to the state historic preservation office ( shpo )
reviewed and sent to the habs office and then off to the federal archives.
over the years lots and lots of things have been documented from bridges
to greenhouses. and over the years the federal program has asked for only
"stuff" of significance on a national scale ( the best of the best sometimes ),
so ... if a property has local significance, the states record it to their own
standards. which are sometimes exactly like the federal government's, and
sometimes are not quite the same.

http://www.nps.gov/hdp/habs/index.htm

Drew B. · Nov 22, 2007

just to continue with John's assessment....this (HABS) was created back in FDR's administration (1930's) to put people back to work, along with architects, engineers, craftspeople, etc. HAER was created later and now HALS (?) for landscapes is the newest.

Oren Grad · Nov 22, 2007

Schafphoto said:
Just found out from Fuji that the Acros 100 4x5 quickloads are not on a polyester base and therefore do not qualify for the most stringent Library of Congress archival standards (500 years). Maybe this is old news to HABS-HAER photographers, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I was hoping to use the ACROS quickloads for a couple of projects. looks like i'll be shooting the TMAX readyloads (on Estar thick base).

Here is the response from FUJI:
Dear Mr. Schafer,

Thank you for contacting FUJIFILM, USA's Helpdesk Center. Please allow
us to assist you.
Acros 4x5 black & white quickload film is a cellulose triacelate base.

THIS IS INCORRECT. For those who can read Japanese, the data sheet for Acros sheet film, including 4x5 QL, is here:

http://fujifilm.jp/support/pdf/filmandcamera/datasheet/ff_neopan100acrossheet_001.pdf

It states clearly that the base is 0.180mm polyester.

The Fujifilm USA website does not have the datasheet for Acros sheet film, only the datasheet for Acros roll film, which is, of course, acetate. The only sense I can make of this is that the Fujifilm USA helpdesk staff simply reached for the nearest data sheet, read "cellulose triacetate", and didn't know enough to understand that sheet films are almost always on a different base.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 22, 2007

Schafphoto said:
Just found out from Fuji that the Acros 100 4x5 quickloads are not on a polyester base and therefore do not qualify for the most stringent Library of Congress archival standards (500 years). Maybe this is old news to HABS-HAER photographers, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I was hoping to use the ACROS quickloads for a couple of projects. looks like i'll be shooting the TMAX readyloads (on Estar thick base).

Here is the response from FUJI:
Dear Mr. Schafer,

Thank you for contacting FUJIFILM, USA's Helpdesk Center. Please allow
us to assist you.
Acros 4x5 black & white quickload film is a cellulose triacelate base.

I suspect Fujifilm USA is wrong; its Web site provides no technical information whatsoever on sheet sizes of Acros. Based on my handling of Acros sheets, they appear to be coated on polyester. That conclusion may be supported by this data sheet on Fuji Japan's Web site:

http://fujifilm.jp/support/pdf/filmandcamera/datasheet/ff_neopan100acrossheet_001.pdf

I don't read Japanese but, in the first line of the final bulleted area of the data sheet's section 1, you'll see the letters PET. That stands for polyethylene terephthalate, a thermoplastic polymer resin of the polyester family. Hopefully, someone able to translate will validate or refute my conclusion. If I'm correct, you can happily go on using Acros.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 22, 2007

Oren posted while I was composing. Glad a Japanese speaker could verify my suspicion.

Ray Heath · Nov 23, 2007

thnx for the explanation John

an interesting concept

a further question if i may, does this process save the subject from demolition, or is it a record of what is, or may be, lost?

removed account4 · Nov 23, 2007

Ray Heath said:
thnx for the explanation John

an interesting concept

a further question if i may, does this process save the subject from demolition, or is it a record of what is, or may be, lost?

hi ray

usually the images are like "last rites" before a
structure or place is removed or altered completely.
typically, unless the government is doing this sort of thing to a "national treasure"
-- like in pawtucket rhode island several years ago there was a habs recordation
of the slater mill, the birthplace of the american industrial revolution ...
unlike the documentation of the mill, which was a not because the owners
wanted to do anything diverse with the propert ( it's a museum )
most documentations are a "requirement" that the developer or property
owner has to do.

i think you might be able to search
parts of the collection here: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/hhquery.html

Jersey Vic · Nov 23, 2007

Just took a look at this org website. Very neat. I found some neat aerial views of my ("womens") college and the associated taverns.
This is good info all around. Thanks John et al.

k_jupiter · Nov 23, 2007

I guess my question is... How do you find out if a local treasure is on this list? If not, how do you get it on the list?

I have got the 4x5 and/or 5x7, the paper, and maybe one of these days, the time. I would like to ensure that the notable houses in my 'hood, including a Bernard Maybeck, and the original farm house of Brig. Gen. Henry M. Naglee are somehow documented as habs/haer examples.

tim in san jose

Drew B. · Nov 23, 2007

k_jupiter said:
I guess my question is... How do you find out if a local treasure is on this list? If not, how do you get it on the list?

I have got the 4x5 and/or 5x7, the paper, and maybe one of these days, the time. I would like to ensure that the notable houses in my 'hood, including a Bernard Maybeck, and the original farm house of Brig. Gen. Henry M. Naglee are somehow documented as habs/haer examples.

tim in san jose

Contact your state's historic preservation office and ask to be put on a list of contractors / photographers. Get involved in local historic societies or groups. Have the NPS send out publications showing what they want for images and documentation.

removed account4 · Dec 4, 2007

k_jupiter said:
I guess my question is... How do you find out if a local treasure is on this list? If not, how do you get it on the list?

I have got the 4x5 and/or 5x7, the paper, and maybe one of these days, the time. I would like to ensure that the notable houses in my 'hood, including a Bernard Maybeck, and the original farm house of Brig. Gen. Henry M. Naglee are somehow documented as habs/haer examples.

tim in san jose

hey tim

you can call the habs office in your region and ask if it is on the list (national list)
they are super-nice and call your local government and ask someone in
the planning department, if they are on the "local list"
( the historic preservation people are sometimes hiding out with planners )
you can always document them on your own and submit the film and prints to the state, they like that
don't forget to include a sheet of discriptions of your views
and a site plan/sketch showing where you were standing ...

good luck!

john

Schafphoto · Mar 24, 2009

Fuji Acros 4x5 is on polyester base

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies, Fuji Acros is in fact on a Polyester base and it is acceptable by HABS. The photographers at the National Park service had the same problem with the Fuji Staff not knowing their own film but also eventually came to the same conclusions, after doing research in Japanese. In cold storage with proper washing it should last over 500 years. You can see my HABS work on my website www.habsphoto.com most was shot on the Fuji Quickloads for ease of transport and lack of dust.

-Schaf

Stephen Schafer
Architectural and Documentary Photography
www.habsphoto.com

TimVermont · Mar 26, 2009

This may be a very ignorant question, but why isn't this sort of work done with photogrammetry equipment so that measurements & digital modeling can be done directly from the negatives?

Schafphoto · Mar 27, 2009

HABS is done with Photogrammetry and measured drawings as well as 4x5 or 5x7 film. The photographic film views are a part of the overall documentation. The program was started in 1933, before photogrammetry, but today it all works together to create a overall record of the site.

-Stephen Schafer
www.habsphoto.com

bgh · Apr 4, 2009

Stephen--

I too do HABS/HAER level photography, with 4x5, though I come at it from a background as a historian, not a photography background. I took a look at your site--very nice stuff indeed!

Bruce

HABS photographers Fuji-Acros vs. Tmax

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