FotoImpex/Adox and UK since Brexit

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I am confused.

A retailer within the EU selling to a consumer outside the EU is not obliged to add EU-VAT.
Thus who can nonetheless charge this plus a punishment fee from the seller and and on what legal basis?

Adding UK tax on such sale to the UK and transferring such to UK fiscal authorities is a service for UK consumers to enable them such import.
How can not doing so affect the EU retailer and not the importing UK-consumer?

I don´t really know. I guess the situation will be that inside the UK the debt will acumulate and be valid under UK law but it is a question if this will be helped to collect by EU member states.
So you might get away with it by not entering the UK but such schemes are not an option for us. We want to do things in compliance with the respective laws and if they are incompliable, I guess we have to cease this part of the business.

 

[AgX]

You mean that if you do not collect the UK taxes for UK customers, the UK authorities then will not claim those from your UK customer, but instead will put you as german retailer in debth to UK treasury, which then likely would hamper any business activity with the UK of your company itself or when travelling as company representative to the UK?

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

You mean that if you do not collect the UK taxes for UK customers, the UK authorities then will not claim those from your UK customer, but instead will put you as german retailer in debth to UK treasury, which then likely would hamper any business activity with the UK of your company itself or when travelling as company representative to the UK?

Thats how I understood it. Akward isn´t it?

 

[AgX]

My guess is the british idea was to save own administrative costs. The same time transferring tax claiming from a authority where it was well established and likely effective to small ineffective businesses, in the end raising the overall costs.

From what I learned of import/export under Brexit circumstances this rise of handling/administrative costs (especially due to ineffectiveness of the prescribed processes) is a general issue of wholesale too.

Added to this are personal issues of labour permits etc.

 

[AgX]

Here a british view from back then...

https://bit.ly/3cQZEs0

 

[foc]

My wife works for the Irish Revenue Commissioners and I have asked how can the UK HMRC enforce the collection of taxes on a company or individual that is not in their jurisdiction.
The simple answer I got was, as they are not in the EU, they can't.

Instead of making it easy to trade with the UK, it appears to be an impediment.
Some smaller EU online businesses have suspended or stopped supplying the UK
And likewise, some UK inline businesses have done the same with the EU.

 

[AgX]

My wife works for the Irish Revenue Commissioners and I have asked how can the UK HMRC enforce the collection of taxes on a company or individual that is not in their jurisdiction.
The simple answer I got was, as they are not in the EU, they can't.

That was my argument too above, but the reply by Mirco shows how in effect the UK authorities may enforce such collection.

A non-UK retailer thus either plays this game or looses a customer to a competitor maybe joining that game.

 

[pentaxuser]

Here a british view from back then...

https://bit.ly/3cQZEs0

Wow that's an old one> It seems to date from about the same time that in British films Anton Diffring was the most overworked nazi in the business

A lot has changed since then I feel

pentaxuser

 

[Arcadia4]

The £135 VAT limit by HMRC is global so even Captain Kirk was having problems...

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/brexit-to-boldly-go-where-no-vat-inspector-has-gone-before/

 

[richyd]

I hadn’t realised that his £135 limit rule for VAT existed until this thread. I looked at HMRC site from what I understand is that it was introduced to try and cover the VAT charges for online purchases and the limit of £135 was used as it is the limit for tariff free imports. The idea is to limit the amount of customs processing. Well, there is an easy answer to that and it has just been taken away.

I do not see, though, how HMRC can have any jurisdiction over foreign entities to register as UK tax entity and collect taxes on their behalf. I don’t see what there is to prevent a supplier overseas to the UK to bill, as they would anyone else they are exporting to, the amount less any local taxes, irrespective of the total value, and and leave any taxes due on import to the responsibility of the importer. This is how all international trade operates. As HMRC say this is for online purchases, then I presume if someone orders on the phone or via email you could also say it was not an online purchase and HMRC can take a running.

 

[AgX]

I do not see, though, how HMRC can have any jurisdiction over foreign entities to register as UK tax entity and collect taxes on their behalf.

As indicated above by me and by foc, there is not.

I don’t see what there is to prevent a supplier overseas to the UK to bill, as they would anyone else they are exporting to, the amount less any local taxes, irrespective of the total value, and and leave any taxes due on import to the responsibility of the importer.

As I tried to unfold above, the UK authorities see the exporting retailer as part of the import to the UK process. As he is. I mean, the importing customer could have a 2nd residence in the foreign country and import to himself. (The example seems weird, but I chose it to show that the exporting retailer is involved.)
Now the UK authorities involve the exporting retailer in that tax collecting. How in effect they can do so I explained above.

The annoyed retailer might consider going in advance to an international court that may have jurisdiction on such and have them consider the approach by UK authorities.
Or once action is done against his interest in the UK going to a UK court.

But as you I only learned of this by this thread. And I find it puzzling why UK authorities not just could act as, to my understanding, do all EU fiscal authorities in handling foreign imports by consumers.

 

[cmacd123]

of course the UK authorities can just refuse to allow a shipment to enter the UK territory if it does not meet all the "rules" (including having the UK taxes paid. perhaps they could go back to the 1700s and have the tax amount paid by stamps applied to to the package.

 

[AgX]

Not likely as the tax transfer process likely only starts at sending the goods, and the way the billing is handled the goods would likely arive sooner. That is why Mirko had it about him getting into debth at UK fiscal authorities. A debth he sooner or later will have to balance.
The alternative would be to put the parcel on hold until the fees are paid, by whoever. This however practically would mean even more hassle on british side than collecting fees COD at delivering to the british consumer...

 

[foc]

of course the UK authorities can just refuse to allow a shipment to enter the UK territory if it does not meet all the "rules" (including having the UK taxes paid. perhaps they could go back to the 1700s and have the tax amount paid by stamps applied to to the package.

It might be a very simple but effective solution. Buy digital stamps/barcodes on line from HMRC in the UK and put them on your EU package (just like I buy a postage label from my postal service and if needed it will include the customs cn22 form).
Like all things, I am sure there is a software solution somewhere. My son was looking at a software solution for his website.

 

[Agulliver]

I've recently made my third post-Brexit order from Fotoimpex to be delivered to the UK....and for the first time they've hit me with a tax that I must pay before the package is released. On a £154 order (EUR177) they expect me to pay £46 in duties. No indication of how they reached this figure, no possibility to reply to the message either.

I mean....I suppose I got lucky the previous times? But there's no indication of how they arrived at the £46.

Just a warning to other people in the UK ordering from Fotoimpex and other EU-based retailers.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've recently made my third post-Brexit order from Fotoimpex to be delivered to the UK....and for the first time they've hit me with a tax that I must pay before the package is released. On a £154 order (EUR177) they expect me to pay £46 in duties. No indication of how they reached this figure, no possibility to reply to the message either.

I mean....I suppose I got lucky the previous times? But there's no indication of how they arrived at the £46.

Just a warning to other people in the UK ordering from Fotoimpex and other EU-based retailers.

When the package arrives there should be a breakdown of the charges. There is an Online HMCR PDF you can fill out and post to the relevant Customs office.
Early this year I bought a near mint 1961 300mm f4.5 Xenar from a Belgian store via eBay. Tracking showing it having VAT added, then 30 mins later the charge revised. £130 extra on a 300 euro lens. I had in fact paid VAT on the purchase in Belgium.

I did get a partial refund initially from HMCR, and after a second letter I got a full refund, but not for the carriers (Parcel Force) handling fee to collect the taxes. It turned out Belgium Post had used the wrong Export code on the Customs form.

Remember the way taxes work is the Price of the Item & Shipping, then any Duty, and VAT is compounded on top.

From experience the Export Codes are not that simple and can be time-consuming to look up.

Ian

 

[gary mulder]

In the past I was used to buying photographic stuff from Teamwork in the UK. :-(

 

[Agulliver]

When the package arrives there should be a breakdown of the charges. There is an Online HMCR PDF you can fill out and post to the relevant Customs office.
Early this year I bought a near mint 1961 300mm f4.5 Xenar from a Belgian store via eBay. Tracking showing it having VAT added, then 30 mins later the charge revised. £130 extra on a 300 euro lens. I had in fact paid VAT on the purchase in Belgium.

I did get a partial refund initially from HMCR, and after a second letter I got a full refund, but not for the carriers (Parcel Force) handling fee to collect the taxes. It turned out Belgium Post had used the wrong Export code on the Customs form.

Remember the way taxes work is the Price of the Item & Shipping, then any Duty, and VAT is compounded on top.

From experience the Export Codes are not that simple and can be time-consuming to look up.

Ian

In the end I had to go through the payment process to find out what the nature of the charges were. Which I think would be considered "sharp practise" were I dealing with a private enterprise.

Unlike my previous two orders, which I guess just slipped through, HMRC decided to charge VAT and then a £12 handling fee - which seems rather extortionate but there's not a lot I can do about it. It's still got be some film that I cannot actually source from any UK retailer.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

In the past I was used to buying photographic stuff from Teamwork in the UK. :-(

Just curious, as an "outsider" (from the USA), why wouldn't a UK-based company ship to Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK?

 

[Ian Grant]

Just curious, as an "outsider" (from the USA), why wouldn't a UK-based company ship to Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK?

It's a new EU regulation that includes Northern Ireland. Products need a safety certificate of some sort. NI is included as there's a soft border between North & South,


A friend makes Ottinger tailpieces for banjos, when he sold one recently to Ireland it was seized by customs, as was its replacement. No issues selling anywhere else in the world.

Ian

 

[Klaus_H]

"Splendit Isolation" = taxes & borders
European Comunity = free trade & free travel.

Return to the EU!

 

[foc]

Just curious, as an "outsider" (from the USA), why wouldn't a UK-based company ship to Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK?

Northern Ireland (NI) is on the island of Ireland but is politically part of the UK.

The rest of the island is officially called Ireland but often referred to as The Republic of Ireland (ROI) and it is part of the EU.

Since there is a soft border (unmanned check points) as a result of the peace process, it was decided that the EU / UK boarder should be in the Irish Sea and not on the land.

This means that goods from UK to NI can pass (with correct documentation) freely and no duty.

Goods from EU to NI will be charged Vat & Duty.
Goods from EU to ROI traveling through NI port can move freely and no duty.

A UK business should have no problem sending goods to NI. Sometimes the businesses are ignorant of the details and some online software packages don't treat NI correctly.

It can sound complicated at times but so far it works and more importantly the peace process is maintained.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

@Ian Grant and @foc thanks for your replies. Based upon the info from @foc, it sounds like the company mentioned in thread may not be familiar with the details.