First 4x5, going Ortho!

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I finally got my hands on some 4x5 holders, and I will eagerly do my first 4 shots this week using a Crown Graphics on indefinite loan from my roomate's friend. Lens is a nice Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar f4.7, 135mm, and I've had success with the camera so far by using a roll fiml back. I managed to compose a picture on the ground glass (it IS a profound experience...), change a bit the front standard to get better depth of field--by using what I was seeing on the GG, and stopping down to f32 to get it all in focus.

So for my first sheet films shots, I decided to go J&C (Maco) Ortho, first because they sell it in packs of 10 for next to nothing, which is enough for me to waste, second because I've never tried real Ortho film, and while we're using a grandpa camera, let's use grandpa's film too.

Now let's talk a bit about exposing and processing it... I want to take plain static subjects for now, in shade and daylight. I'm looking for the results to look like a photograph, so no special processing yet. My assumption was to consider the film as an ISO 25 in sunlight, and perhaps a little more (32? 50?) in shade, provided that shade has a lot of blue light.

Regarding processing, I have on hand Rodinal (grandpa's developer!), HC-110, and Agfa Multicontrast paper developer. I can also go to the nearby photo store and buy pretty much any Ilford/Kodak/Agfa off-the-shelf developper. My idea was to use Rodinal at either 1+50 or 1+100.

The Massive Dev chart gives times like 4-7 mins with Rodinal 1+25 for 4x5. I have two options for processing: either trays (8x10), which I've never done, or a Yankee tank which requires some 2L of solution. I'll be processing only 4 sheets this week, so I was not keen on keeping a lot of diluted solutions. I also have some green filter for safelights, so I think I could also go with development by inspection.

I'm brave enough to go with trays (grandpa's method!), but don't have a clue on guesstimating agitation cycles and development times. Does 9 mins in Rodinal 1+50, with agitation every minute sounds like a good plan? In order to reduce error, I would also develop each sheet individually, would a few gentle rockings of the tray over 5 secs count as an agitation cycle?

 

[Clueless]

Since it is less sensitive to red (light) would you really want to use a green (inspection light)? A green inspection light (very, very dim) has been used with film that has been pre-soaked in dye (penacryptol green) before developing "Panchromatic" B/W film. Even then only after partial development has taken place and the film's surface reflection is viewed just for a few seconds; rather, than viewing through the film "at" the light.
Since the film is insensitive to red light (within reason) the whole developing process can be done in "safe light" which makes testing handy for the novice.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I suggest that you don't use a green safelight for ortho film. It is sensitive to blue and GREEN light.

Use a dark red safelight with a 15 watt bulb at 4 - 6 ft distance or greater. You can develop these films by inspection this way. If you do, remember that the image will differ greatly in the light after fixation than what you see by inspection. It takes a bit of an 'eye' to develop by inspection.

For many of the old ortho K grain films, a good developer was Dektol 1:3 for 3 minutes or 1:7 for 7 minutes. (easy to remember too)

PE

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I have an amber safelight filter, would that work as well as a red one? It's just that I remembered that Ole was developing his film by inspection with a green safelight, but I think he was doing Efke, which is ortho-pan, so that it has some sensitivity to red, reduced sensitivity to green. I don't know if that applies to Maco Ortho as well.

I've no idea if Maco Ortho is actually K grain, but I have easy access to Dektol, though.

 

[Ole]

Amber safelight is not red enough. You need a "really red" one.

I actually use white safelight for most of my processing - poor lightproofing of darkroom. When it's dark outside I use green, except for the slow EFKE films and ortho films where I use red. Never amber.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Thanks for the precision Ole, I thought you used the green for Efke.

For my part, I processed in trays my first two sheets, and the base is very clear indeed. I have a very, very faint image on either, and it seems development is not in cause.

Camera shutter: I exposed a roll of 120 film using a rollfilm back and it came out nicely once processed.

Film: Emulsion side was towards light, and there is no fogging (it's all clear!)

Exposure: my reflected non-spot meter gave me f32, 1/2s. I exposed the first one as such, and f32, 1s. It was around 6PM, and sundown is around 8-9PM here. The light was still pretty ordinary, although it was just starting to become a bit red.

Development:
- First shot developed using Rodinal 1+50 for 7mins. Constant rocking of the tray for the first minute, then 3-4 rockings every minute.
- Second shot: Rodinal 1+12, for 10mins. Constant rocking of the tray for the first minute, 3-4 rockings every 30s for the next 3 minutes, and 3-4 rockings every minute for the remaining time.

There is no visible difference between the two sheets of film, and the reduced silver portion look like it's barely making it to Zone I.

Facing this merciless failure, would any of you be so kind as to suggest avenues of improvement?

 

[Clueless]

Late-in-the-day light would be reddish; since your film is least sensitive to red then there is little -to no light "affecting" the film. Either shoot in daylight; or reduce the exposure index by 10 to get into the ball park.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Efke 25, an "orthopanchromatic" or "Type A Pan" film, would be off speed about 1 to 2 stops if the light is starting to redden as the sun nears the horizon. Combine that with reciprocity failure (some films already require 2x exposure when meterd exposure is 1/2 second, and as much as 3x at 1 second) and you could easily be three stops below the exposure you thought you had. If your film was a true ortho, it's likely worse, as the light color alone could cut 4-5 stops when the light you see is even a little visibly red (these films lose 2 stops under incandescent light, which your eye sees as almost white, compared to midday sun).

Try again in midday light before panicking.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Efke 25, an "orthopanchromatic" or "Type A Pan" film, would be off speed about 1 to 2 stops if the light is starting to redden as the sun nears the horizon. Combine that with reciprocity failure (some films already require 2x exposure when meterd exposure is 1/2 second, and as much as 3x at 1 second) and you could easily be three stops below the exposure you thought you had. If your film was a true ortho, it's likely worse, as the light color alone could cut 4-5 stops when the light you see is even a little visibly red (these films lose 2 stops under incandescent light, which your eye sees as almost white, compared to midday sun).

Try again in midday light before panicking.

I was also concerned about my agitation method: I read some Kodak doc last night and they consider tray agitation as constant. In my case, I had intermittent agitation, like what is usually used for paper, and I am afraid that it is not enough. Should I rock the tray harder, more often? Take the sheet in and out of the developer? I don't want to develop many sheets at once yet, so the shuffling method is not on my list.

 

[Donald Miller]

Amber safelight is not red enough. You need a "really red" one.

I actually use white safelight for most of my processing - poor lightproofing of darkroom. When it's dark outside I use green, except for the slow EFKE films and ortho films where I use red. Never amber.

I have developed APHS ortho film with a conventional OC (amber) LED safelight with no problems...after all paper emulsion is ortho.

When I prepare masks with this film the safelight is on continually through exposure and all processing steps.

I just checked the J and C site and the film is listed as a half tone film...the same type of film that I use for masking...EI on my film is 3.

If your film has the same characteristics, it would appear that you under exposed the film by 3 1/2 stops.

 

[Donald Miller]

I was also concerned about my agitation method: I read some Kodak doc last night and they consider tray agitation as constant. In my case, I had intermittent agitation, like what is usually used for paper, and I am afraid that it is not enough. Should I rock the tray harder, more often? Take the sheet in and out of the developer? I don't want to develop many sheets at once yet, so the shuffling method is not on my list.

Rocking a tray as opposed to shuffling through a stack of film (bottom to top) is likely to cause increased density at the edges at least that is what I have experienced and what others have told me of their experience.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Rocking a tray as opposed to shuffling through a stack of film (bottom to top) is likely to cause increased density at the edges at least that is what I have experienced and what others have told me of their experience.

But in the case of a one-element stack, how would you shuffle it?

 

[Ole]

But in the case of a one-element stack, how would you shuffle it?

Lift it out, drop it back in.