Dig Negs & Plat Pallad

Discussion in 'Digital Negatives' started by CMoore, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. CMoore

    CMoore Subscriber

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    Oh Boy..... I am just (probably always will be) a "beginner" Black and White Film Photographer.
    I Know NOTHING about Digital Photography, and know even less about the digital darkroom.
    I am taking a (alternative) Photo Class at my local college. They have a Nikon film scanner in their Digital "Darkroom".
    I have used that to create a couple of "8x10" Negatives.
    With these two Negs i am going to take a shot at doing some Platinum/Palladium prints.
    At this point in MY Learning Process, do i need to worry about Step Tablets and Curves.?
    After looking at:
    Bostick and Sullivan
    Youtube
    Dick Arentz
    I am pretty much overwhelmed by the process they recommend to make a digital neg.
    With the help of a fellow student that knows how to print color photos in The Digital Lab, we have adjusted the computer so that The Negs look like they would (to my eye) make a good Silver Gel Print if i were in the darkroom and using an enlarger.....if you know what i mean.
    Is "My Process" OK to get started with trying Platinum/Palladium.?
    Thank You
     
  2. cowanw

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    I am sure there are lots of magic bullets. Here's mine which I found simple and straightforward, step by step.
    Digital Negatives for Palladium and Other Alternative Processes by Ron Reeder
     
  3. Bob Carnie

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    I would get hold of David Hyman's in Salt Lake City , he is one of the younger masters of digital neg making and I trust him completely
     
  4. paulbarden

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    I wish there was a good resource for people using Canon printers - most of these manuals assume you’re using an Epson device, which is pretty much useless for me. :-(
     
  5. TheFlyingCamera

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    If you want to short-circuit the digital negative process and make some successful prints out-of-the gate, go watch the video here:

    Dead Link Removed

    It's the Bostick-Sullivan method, but they supply you with a successful curve so you can just apply it and make good prints with a minimum of additional fuss. I used their curve to make some negatives last week and they nailed it. The pain in the ass part is going through the proofing cycle to make your own curve for your specific process. Since you don't have one yet, the easiest thing to do is follow someone else's footsteps. Theirs make it easy.
     
  6. nmp

    nmp Member
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    Your process should be OK. At least you will be able to learn the whole other aspect of the print-making: coating, exposing, developing and the rest. I think you certainly will have to learn the rudiments of Photoshop, inkjet printing etc if you want to make your own digital negatives at some point including figure out the correction curves for various chemistries. Absent that, you could consider making inter-negatives, though I suspect the requisite films may not be available any more.

    Here is a good article by J. Schrieber where he suggests what a good starting point for a negative is:

    https://jkschreiber.wordpress.com/p...s/platinumpalladium-printing-a-brief-outline/

    Here are a couple of online resources for digital negative that you might find simpler (may be):

    Dan Burkholder's http://phototechmag.com/the-modern-digital-negative/

    G. Smyth's http://glsmyth.com/articles/creating-the-digital-negative.pdf

    Good luck and welcome to the hybrid world!

    :Niranjan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  7. OP
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    CMoore

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    Wow...OK.
    More examples of why i will never own a digital camera. :smile:
    I have nothing but respect for people that can use a computer for photography. I realize that most people just let their computer do some kind of "Auto Correct" type of thing, or send their Negs (are they called Files) to Walmart and let them do the work. And that's cool......how many people ever knew how to use a darkroom.?.....not many.
    Anyway......i am reading through all this info. Thanks For All The Links/Help.
    My teacher pretty much "Went Digital" in about 2006. So, at this point, she is quite good with Photoshop and Lightroom. I will run some of this stuff by her and see if she can give me some help.
    Thanks Again
    I Really Appreciate It :wink:
     
  8. Alan9940

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    Producing good digital negs for pt/pd printing, and then producing acceptable prints is a HUGE undertaking and quite a learning process. That said, it's not difficult and hand-coating paper and making handmade prints is great fun! To the point, I don't remember you saying what printer you plan to use to generate a digital negative, but, if Epson with K3 inks, I've had great success with the following tool: Dead Link Removed. I've tried just about every tool out there for producing digital negatives, both from digital files and scanned film, and had the most success with the aforementioned product. As others have mentioned, there are canned curves you can start with, but you will probably need to spend some time tailoring one of those curves to your own working methods.

    Good luck and have fun!
     
  9. Larry Cloetta

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    Bob,
    I Googled various combinations of David Hyman, Salt Lake City, and digital negative, and nothing comes up for me. Would you have any other information as I am fairly close to SLC and might be interested.
    Thanks.
     
  10. OP
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    CMoore

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    Alan9940 -
    All i know for sure is that they are Epson...a pretty big printer...2x3 or 3x4 feet maybe.
    Just out of curiosity i will ask the school what kind of printer and ink and get back to you.....Thanks :smile:
     
  11. wyofilm

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    I don't know if this will help, but you might want to contact
    http://hiddenlightllc.com
    in Arizona. They do a lot of Pt/Pd and might be print dig negs from a files you send to them. I've never had any contact with them but know of them from



    It might help you get an idea of an ideal transparency for Pt/Pd.
     
  12. nmp

    nmp Member
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    If you have the methodology right, it shouldn't matter which printer you are using.
     
  13. Bob Carnie

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    Maybe I spelled his name wrong, he is indeed starting a service there, maybe a kind person here would provide the link, Bostick and Sullivan can help as David worked for years with them when they were on the road.
     
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  15. Bob Carnie

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    I agree with nmp on this

    You can use a Lambda, you can use a LVT recorder , you can even have stochastic film made for this purpose... I agree the reality is to make a negative that actually looks like a negative.

    With inkjet negatives , the real complexity is forcing the ink to lay down in a predictable patter to make your life easier.. this is where a lot of mistakes are made, as a L value on your computer , dosen't necessarily match the corresponding value on your negative.... Thus one has to prep the printer and receiving material to record faithfully the L or K values... this is done by test , adjust and repeat... once all the values are correct you just need to make the file for the process..
    Once you figure out how to make the L or K values respond to any receiving film you are on your way and I believe any printer should work with the right person doing the testing.

    When I do this on Silver, the Lambda linearizes the film to 21 equal steps by adjusting the laser output... once this was done when I first tested this I then took the step wedge that was good and printed it on Pt Pd. once I figured out my chemical ratio/ exposure/development to make the best step wedge I could I then moved to the final step.. I took a sampling of images that I like and then did a curve variance of each image on one film like a contact sheet, then used my established pt pd workflow and made a print... It then became very obvious to me which curve shape worked best in my darkroom.... I saved that curve and apply it to my files whenever I want to do a silver negative for pt pd using my Lambda. Usually the simple S curve idea is good for this purpose where I raise the 3/4 tone and lower the 1/4 tone by about 5-10 units.

    so in short ,if it looks like a neg, acts like a neg... its probably a neg.
    Bob Contact stage.jpg
     
  16. OP
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    CMoore

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    Hey Bob -
    I just read the P/P file on your website.....thanks for that BTW.
    Just curious.....do you buy something like Perma-Wash, or is there a recipe that you prefer and use.?
    Thank You
     
  17. Bob Carnie

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    I make my own Hypo Clear Agent from stock chemicals as I would for silver printing
    In a pinch permawash would work.
     
  18. OP
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    CMoore

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    That is kind of what i thought you were saying.
    What is your Formula for Hypo-Clear.?
    Thanks :smile:
     
  19. Larry Cloetta

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    Thanks, Bob. I will check with Bostick and Sullivan.
     
  20. Miles Nelson

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  21. paulbarden

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  22. Miles Nelson

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    I followed this thread and kept coming back to another basic sort of answer ... Not to the issue of a beginner having a startup system for alt-printing but instead what would be the logical 1st process to learn to do ... in my humble opinion Platinum / Palladium may be the easiest process to get a image on paper but one of the more intricate processes in which to become expert at maximizing the process’s potential ... but is also the most expensive to practice and learn... I would be inclined to suggest a beginner learn a process which uses similar developers , paper and identical coating techniques such a Kallitype printing ... I believe if a person learned how to produce a high quality Kallitype the transition to quality PtPd print making is easy with a much flatter learning curve.... importantly there would be a huge cost savings and much less wasted precious metals...the other benefit is that in the process of the student will produce some Kallitype prints that can visually be indistinguishable from Platinum prints....just a thought
     
  23. Prof_Pixel

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    As for approach to making a digital negative, I recommend G. Smyth's http://glsmyth.com/articles/creating-the-digital-negative.pdf (as mentioned earlier). As for a starting process, I recommend making salt prints.
     
  24. OP
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    CMoore

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    Miles...Prof...If i had wanted your stupid opinions i would have.....
    Just a little APUG humor there.:smile:
    Coincidentally, my teacher JUST said something Similar/The Same, to me on Friday.
    So i really appreciate your guys suggestions. Kind of perfect timing.
    I am enrolled in an "Alternative Process Class" and i was wanting to do P/P for my final project. I have decided to do Chemigrams instead. :smile:
    As much as i do not mesh with digital photography, and do not own a Digital SLR, i think i am going to need to dip my toes in reality, take the "Intro To Digital" class at my local school, learn how to use The Computer, Lightroom, Photoshop, Inkjet Printer, etc etc etc.....and then tackle the whole P/P mess after i have a better understanding of those things.
    Even if i never use a Digital SLR again, the Experience and Education can only make me a better Film/Street Photog/Darkroom guy.
    I am going to have to make an attitude adjustment, hold my prejudices, and do myself a favor. :smile:
    Thanks again for the Posts and Links.
    I Really Do Appreciate It
     
  25. Miles Nelson

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    Good suggestion.... In consideration of this “beginner” whose aspirations are to become a platinum printer ... salt printing offers the chance to learn proper coating techniques , exposure calculations and the ability to do tonal evaluations and the added benefit of using less expensive materials... my thought was that Kallitypes are a bit more related to Pt/Pd ( iron based, oxalate sensitizer , Ammonium citrate developers, same suitable papers and an almost identical tonal range, etc).
     
  26. Bob Carnie

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    Regarding Kallitype vs Pt Pd printing. Does anyone here have a good knowledge of the attributes of both systems?.. I am most concerned in the archival relationship between the two.

    I am finding that I love gum over Palladium, but as Miles mentions the cost of the metal is huge and is a real consideration for someone working on personal pojects like myself.

    thanks in advance

    Bob
     
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