Different printing methods?

[ggriffi]

Thanks to the economy I will getting some extra time off around the Christmas holiday so I want to do some printing. This will be the first time for my printing fiber and selenium toning. So, tonight I was checking "The Print" where AA says afterthe second fix into the selenium. Then I get out Rudman's book "Master Printing" and he uses onefix, then a wash, then into the selenium. How necessary is the second fix?

Second, Rudman also uses "+/- 3% acetic acid" after the toning. AA used hypo clear. For those of us who are chemically challenged, are these the same thing?

My reasons for wanting to know is it will be easier for me to manage seven trays (Rudman) than nine trays(AA).

TIA

g

 

[Donald Miller]

I use the second fix bath for archival process on fiber. I would not use a stop bath (acetic acid) after the fix and before the toner.

I use hypo clearing agent after the toning bath since the selenium toner contains thiosulfate (fixer).

 

[nworth]

If you process a lot of prints, a two bath fixing process is recommended for best stability. Fixer gets exhausted pretty easily, but it still dissolves silver halide. The problem is that the partially exhausted fixer does not remove resulting the silver thiosulfate complex from the print very well. Using the two bath fixing method solves that problem. Adams described the method in his book. It you only process a half dozen or so prints in a session, you don't have to worry about it.

I'm not sure why Rudman uses an acetic acid bath after toning. Maybe a more careful reading of his book would reveal it. In any case, he is a careful and successful worker, and I would consider his methods to be good. The reason for using HCA is simple: to increase the effectiveness of washing. HCA is the standard procedure for archival processing, and you can't go too wrong by using it. I recommend a quick water rinse before the HCA treatment.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

A second fix right before the Selenium toner will not only help remove any undissolved silver halide or thiosulfate complexes, but it will prepare the paper to go into the selenium toner, which does already contain thiosulfate so no washing is needed at that point. I think Adams was trying to eliminate any chance that unwanted staining would occur from any residual silver that was in the paper.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

In Ansel's time I believe the norm was dev, stop bath, acid hardening fix divided into a first and second bath, a water holding bath until the end of the printing session, then a plain hypo bath, straight into selenium toner diluted in hypo clearing agent, a plain hypo clearing agent bath, then into the wash. That makes 9 trays if you did it all in one shot. Most people either waited until they had cleaned up after a printing session before giving the plain hypo, toner, hypo clear, final wash steps...or they washed and dried the prints after the acid hardener fix to deal with it a later date. Time consuming, but has proven the test of time.

In Ansel's book, The Print he says that selenium toning requires an alkaline environment...that's why after a stop bath and an acid fix you have to wash, then give a plain hypo bath before toning or it can result in stains.

Now take this with a grain of salt because I'm not sure how many people are doing it this way, but why not keep the process alkaline from start to finish? I go dev, water stop, first alkaline fix, second alkaline fix, straight into the selenium toner diluted in water, and into a water holding bath until the end of the printing session when they all go into the final wash. Because I use a rapid fix (TF-3 which is similar to Photographers Formulary's TF-4), means I can see a fully toned print in under 10 minutes. A huge savings in both time and materials.

I'd love to hear from some of APUG's seasoned veterans and chemistry guru's concerning keeping it all alkaline.

Have fun with your experiments - selenium toning can totally change a prints depth.

Murray

 

[Les McLean]

I go from dev to water stop then one bath fixer into a holding water bath before washing for 40 to 60 minutes. I selenium or gold tone either straight after washing or at a later date depending on how much time I have after printing. Whilst I agree with the comments here regarding two bath fix I use only one but if I'm making a number of prints in the day (10 to 15) I replace the fixer after half the prints are done.

With regard to selenium toning might I suggest that you do not tone by time for selenium acts on the lower values first therefore I high key print is likely to take longer to tone than a very low key print will. I tone by inspection which does take some time to learn. A good idea when first doing it is to make two identical prints and leave one in a water holding bath while the second is in the toner, do not continually look at the print in the toner for you will not see the change. Refer continuously to the print in the water bath as a reference and you will soon get the hang of it and be able to dispence with the second reference print. Also be aware that long toning in selenium can reduce the overall contrast of the print.

After toning I wash for 20 to 30 minutes before drying. Have fun during your holiday.

 

[roy]

I go from dev to water stop QUOTE]

Do you consider that an acid stop is superfluous, Les ?

 

[ann]

there are some toners that require the stop bath, either acid or HCA. It stops the toning process.

I don't remember Tim recommending an acid stop bath for selenium , but i will need to go back and review that chapter.

 

[dancqu]

I don't remember Tim recommending an acid
stop bath for selenium , but I will need to go
back and review that chapter.

Must be some mistake; an acid stop after selenium
toning. What would be the point to any stop after
selenium?

As for a single fix, if anything near archival results
are expected then single bath fixing is a big waste
of fixer. Fixer's volumetric capacity for silver is very
limited if one is after an archival fix. All that is
when fixer is used at the usual strengths.

I use a single fix for archival results but I do not
use fixer at it's normal strengths. I use fixer very
dilute one-shot. Great capacity per unit of
concentrate is achieved AND the very
dilute fix is fast. Dan