Dark Edges on 120 film

[connorgeoff]

Hey, I'm hoping someone can help me out with an issue I'm having.

I've had a few rolls of film developed now that, when I scan the film the edges always end up darker and muddier in colour. I'm not sure why this keeps happening. In the photos I've included you can see when the brightness is brought down it reveals the variation further. It seems there are three bright strips along each photo as well.

I'm wondering if someone could please give me some insight as to why this might be happening.

These photos are from different rolls of film, Portra 160, Portra 400 and Fuji 400H
Shot on RB67 Pro SD
Developed by a Lab
Scannerd with Epson V700

 

[Prest_400]

Hi connorgeoff, Welcome to the forums.

Actually it fell down my priorities, but upon receiving my last batch of C41 I had the same issues in some frames. Your post is very timely in that matter.
My examples are quite similar, streaky skies varying densities as if the darkness out of frame was whisped into frame. I also had a frame where there was a cloudy darker (lighter density area).
If you take a close and deliberate look at the negative, it is there as uneven density in the sky. Orientation also was mysterious, mine being a 6x9 camera, some frames had it coming from the long side of the strip, and others were vertical.

Was your C41 developed in dip and dunk (tecnolab?) that is the case of my lab. A google search for "streaks, uneven density" brought the gross conclusion of agitation issues. AFAIK, those machines burst gas into the tanks and that acts as agitation. I was very intrigued because my issue happened with one of the best labs around. The tech even called me and was puzzled about it.

So we are two having found the same.

 

[connorgeoff]

Yeah I was thinking it might be agitation, I don't think my lab does dip and dunk.

Oddly my density change isn't noticeable on the negative itself. From what I can see anyway.

The negatives are generally quite over exposed intentionally and are very dense.
Scanning the negative without density correction doesn't show the variation in darkness as much.

Could it be that the labs method, in conjunction with over exposed negatives needing darkening on density correction,is leading to this result do you think?

 

[Kino]

Check for dichroic fog on the film. Turn the negative away from you at an oblique angle, toward a light source until it reflects like a mirror and inspect the surface for colored reflections in the shape (or inverse shape) of the streaking on the negative. Just like dichroic mirrors used in color lamphouses, certain wavelengths of light can be blocked by this film that can form on the surface of the negative due to exhausted or poorly mixed chemistry.

 

[connorgeoff]

I have actually had issues with Dichroic fog before in my own processing of black and white once. The Negatives here look really quite clean to be honest. I'll post a picture of the negative on a lightbox when I get a chance, maybe that will help.

 

[BMbikerider]

How about slightly loose backing paperand being careless where you left exposed film. Is the edge rebate fogged too?

 

[Kino]

Do you have this issue with other negatives developed at the same place? Does it only appear on very dense negatives?

It could be that your scanning procedure is responsible for exacerbating a very faint density pattern that would never be seen on a photographic print.

 

[MattKing]

I'm guessing that this is a scanning/software problem. Try re-scanning the negatives one way, than again with the negatives turned 180 degrees, to see if the problem areas "move".

 

[chassis]

Looks like a processing problem to me. Looks like a color shift/crossover. Scanning in my experience does not introduce this, unless the color correction is way off. What is your scanning workflow and settings on the scanning software?

 

[connorgeoff]

Alright so here is a negative scanned 4 times in different locations, with the auto CCR, silverfast

. The film has been rotated and moved around. The Auto density does a pretty terrible job, but you can clearly see it's on the film.

 

[connorgeoff]

Here is the actual negative, it's a photo taken on a DSLR over a lightbox. You can see the edges are definitely lighter in the negative.

 

[connorgeoff]

I have gotten plenty of photos developed at this place. Last 4 or so rolls I've started noticing this.

The last 5 rolls I have had were shot on RB67. Before this, all the photos were taken with a Mamiya 6 and I never saw this effect.

Interestingly though, when I took my first roll from the RB67, I also had a roll processed from the Mamiya 6. Both rolls are fine. This initial roll is the first roll I got processed through the RB.

So i've concluded:

It's either the lab
Or it's one of the 2 film backs I have for the RB67 Pro SD (I think I may have not swapped the film backs since after that very first roll)

Any thoughts?

 

[connorgeoff]

I've come up with an idea that may be a good solution,

I have 5 photos left in the current film back. The remaining 5 photos I will shoot with this back, I will also shoot with the other back with the same film.

Then I will take both films to a new lab,

If both films are fine, it was the lab all along, but if one film is darker on the edges, then I know its the film back.

If both are darker, then I'll be even more puzzled!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

The unevenness of the neg you posted could be flare. There is obviously a flare blob in it already, but veiling flare could cause the unevenness. Your real problem though is you need to clean your scanner. That thing is diiiiirty. Clean the mirrors, the underside of the glass, the whole enchilada.

 

[connorgeoff]

haha yeah it does need a good clean, been getting very dirty as I'm just putting things all over it to try figure out this problem. I see the flare there, but in the other photos a flare can't explain the issue.

 

[MattKing]

That looks more like vignetting to me than anything else.

 

[connorgeoff]

I've also just noticed that although the edges on the film are always darker no matter what lens I use, the images with more variation towards the centre of the image were all taken with the 180mm lens

 

[MattKing]

Are you by any chance using the compendium hood?

 

[connorgeoff]

Na I'm not, I've got no hood on in these examples actually now that I think about it

 

[MattKing]

Is the mirror rising completely prior to the shutter releasing?

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

What you're seeing is uneven developing. I have seen this a lot on 120 film developed in minilab machines. I suspect the machine don't give enough agitation of the chemical for the wider film. Minilab film processors use pumps to circulate chemistry through the tanks for agitation, but the tanks are also filled with gears and rollers that move the film through the machine, so I don't think they agitate enough for the wider film. I've never seen this on 35mm, just 120. It shows up in prints made from scanned film more than on traditional prints because with scanning we tend to bump up contrast and color higher than what you would get directly printing on RA4 paper, and that increased contrast brings out the uneven tones in the film caused by the bad developing.

 

[connorgeoff]

yes the mirror is flipping up all the way when I take a photo.

I'm not sure what method my current lab uses, but the one I am going to use next definitely uses Dip & Dunk, would this get rid of the issue?

 

[Ronald Moravec]

What you're seeing is uneven developing. I have seen this a lot on 120 film developed in minilab machines. I suspect the machine don't give enough agitation of the chemical for the wider film. Minilab film processors use pumps to circulate chemistry through the tanks for agitation, but the tanks are also filled with gears and rollers that move the film through the machine, so I don't think they agitate enough for the wider film. I've never seen this on 35mm, just 120. It shows up in prints made from scanned film more than on traditional prints because with scanning we tend to bump up contrast and color higher than what you would get directly printing on RA4 paper, and that increased contrast brings out the uneven tones in the film caused by the bad developing.

Chris is always right. This is a processing problem.

Other factors can contribute like leaky dark slide felt on some brands or not wrapping tight enough after exposure and/or not keeping in a dark place

Most always it is processing and the agitation or lack thereof.

 

[connorgeoff]

I have to say I think you're correct Chris. The 2 new rolls I got developed at a new place came out fine, so it is not the camera nor the scanner. Nor is it the film as it's over both Fuji and Kodak rolls.

I have gone back to my old lab and told them about this and they are looking into it. I explained the reasons why it couldn't have been anything but the development and they seemed satisfied and are going to see if they can fix the issue, hopefully I get some sort of compensation.

Thanks to everyone for giving thoughts on what the issue could be, it helped me a lot and although it's annoying having a bunch of rolls ruined I'm just glad it's not the camera that's broken