Cyanotype "on" or "in" concrete

michaelbsc · Sep 2, 2011

Brian Shaw and I have been discussing cyanotype on concrete in the thread about cyanotype longevity.

It seemed a good idea to break off and start a new thread about concrete. So here it is.

My next step will probably be to get Mike Ware's material to better understand the ferric chemistry.

But right now I'm in a parking lot posting from my phone and need to get back on the road.

Anyone with any experience please chime in.

michaelbsc · Sep 2, 2011

This was my thinking in the other thread, and my meaning about "in" the concrete. Essentially soaking the sensitizer into the top layer. (Might not work.)

BrianShaw said:
...sealant prior to coating could help also.

Actually I was thinking the other direction. Concrete is full of ferric compounds. If you're working with it green one generally works the dyes into the top few mm of the surface.

If a way can be found to exploit the ferric chemistry of concrete into a natural sensitized layer then it is part of the surface, not just sitting on top of the surface.

Of course, there is a real possibility that the other reactions going on to set the concrete would wreck any light sensitivity. But it sure sounds worth trying.

erikg · Sep 2, 2011

Interesting idea. Sounds like a fresco type of technique.

Worker 11811 · Sep 2, 2011

erikg said:
Interesting idea. Sounds like a fresco type of technique.

Hmmm... Interesting... Cyanotype as fresco on plaster, exposed via camera obscura through a pinhole in a window opposite the wall.

Such as this only permanent and in cyanotype:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/05/camera-obscura/oneill-text

Jadedoto · Sep 2, 2011

Isnt water a main component of concrete? How would that affect it, since washing away unexposed compounds is half of what makes cyanotype work?

michaelbsc · Sep 2, 2011

Jadedoto said:
Isnt water a main component of concrete? How would that affect it, since washing away unexposed compounds is half of what makes cyanotype work?

Yes. As cement sets - not actually concrete - water is bound by the various ferric and ferrous compounds into pretty tightly held molecules. (*)

But I don't think that any of the UV sensitive reducable ferric salt is going to be bound to water. After all, once you coat a piece of paper you let the layer dry before exposure. So the molecules of sensitizer will be different than the molecules of the structural support.

Of course, I could be wrong!!

Clearly this is going to take some research.

*Decades ago a technician's knowledge of Portland cement's properties in presence of various contaminants was important in my work. But the vast majority of that knowledge is long gone now.

Trinagray · May 18, 2012

Hiya,

New to the forum (!).

Did you ever test the cyanotype/concrete thing? I'm thinking of embarking on it myself and would ideally like to not prime the surface first as want it to be fused.

Thank you!

Catriona

Mike Wilde · May 18, 2012

Part of the challenge is getting all of the sensitizer exposed to UV. Conctrete is quite porous, so you would need to move the light source around - the sun is not going to get at all of the sensitiser is my 2 bits comment.

Trinagray · May 18, 2012

I will probably be using a UV exposure unit so the chances of an even exposure should be better.

Does anyone who has tried it have any examples they can put up or any tips? Did you buy paving stones or did you pour your own concrete?

Thanks!

Catriona

BrianShaw · May 18, 2012

Mike Wilde said:
Part of the challenge is getting all of the sensitizer exposed to UV. Conctrete is quite porous, so you would need to move the light source around - the sun is not going to get at all of the sensitiser is my 2 bits comment.

The sun worked for me. The problem I had was with longevity of the image. It faded away.

BrianShaw · May 18, 2012

Trinagray said:
Does anyone who has tried it have any examples they can put up or any tips? Did you buy paving stones or did you pour your own concrete?

My example faded away, but was just cyanotype chemistry poured on xisting older concrete sidewalk, then coverred to dry. A big negative was used. A garden hose was used to "develop" the image.

The shame of it all is that I had so little interest in my experiment that I never photographed it. So all that remains is a memory.

anikin · May 18, 2012

BrianShaw said:
My example faded away, but was just cyanotype chemistry poured on xisting older concrete sidewalk, then coverred to dry. A big negative was used. A garden hose was used to "develop" the image.

The shame of it all is that I had so little interest in my experiment that I never photographed it. So all that remains is a memory.

I wonder if spilling some coffee or tea on that area might restore the image? The problem with cyanotypes is that they don't like alkaline environment, and cement is very alkaline. However, toning with tea or coffee might restore some of the image...

BrianShaw · May 18, 2012

Interesting question. It is on the sidewalk where I no longer live, but its only a few blocks away. I might be able to try that!

Trinagray · May 22, 2012

Thanks for replies - has anyone poured their own concrete in small blocks or tried anything with primed concrete?

michaelbsc · May 22, 2012

I'm glad this thread has come back to life. My personal life has gotten in the way of my hobby life a lot the last year, so I've been pretty absent.

My own original thoughts were for making images in concrete countertops. Like for kitchens and toilets. So clearly the image needs to be sealed. But as pointed out, concrete is the wrong pH despite its available iron.

And from a previous life I know that jerking around the pH can have detrimental results to the concrete.

A conundrum to say the least.

Trinagray · May 23, 2012

What do you think would be good to prime it with?

Images on counter tops would be so cool! You should do it

Trinagray · May 23, 2012

I've been thinking about this for a while but it was when I was at the National Theatre the other day that I started feeling like I actually want to do it. The concrete there always inspires me and they were projecting a '20s film directly onto one of the concrete pillars. It looked awesome.

JulFhrr · Feb 21, 2022

Hi,

although this thread was some time ago I would like to add and ask some things...

I am currently trying to make a Cyanotype work on the walls of a room and running some test with painted wood.
Some things I encountered:
1. the sensitiser turns to a light blue before it is exposed to light.
2. the unexposed areas turn a darker blue while the exposed areas don't really change in darkness and stay that light blue.
3. when I used vinegar in the washing process the exposed areas turn darker while the unexposed areas also turn darker, but the color shades differ.

I guess there are already some chemicals in the wall paint that kind of kick of a reaction, so the sensitiser turns blue before being exposed.

Maybe anyone researched the process on or in concrete further and encountered similar things?

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

This question does not appear to have been asked, presumably because for everyone else it does not need to be but what steps need to be taken, if any, to lower the light levels while the liquid is painted on the concrete and before whatever it is that is placed on it to form the picture?

Is a very overcast day enough or does it need to wait until almost dusk or can it be done under full sunlight?
Thanks

pentaxuser

JulFhrr · Feb 21, 2022

Since I made my tests in small sizes so far, I did them all in dimm to dark light in the basement, and placed them outside on sunny as well as cloudy days and under a construction spotlight, which all seemed to work. So probably the room has to be dark until the exposure takes place.

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

Thanks JulFhrr,. So this would kind of eliminate cyanotype on open concrete that cannot be lifted into a darkened room so a bit of fun on concrete slabs in the garden or even larger set concrete in the form of a garden path would seem to be next to impossible short of waiting until dark then using a safelight, and either placing objects or a very large digital transparency on the concrete once it had dried and waiting for the next day's sun or covering it up and then the next day quickly setting patterns or a transparency on it before the sun had a chance to work?

pentaxuser

AgX · Feb 21, 2022

pentaxuser said:
So this would kind of eliminate cyanotype on open concrete that cannot be lifted into a darkened room.

Not at all. See post #11.

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2022

AgX said:
Not at all. See post #11.

Thanks So there is time even in bright sunlight to place a large negative over the cyanotype or arrange a pattern of the kind of things that are used in such a print I suppose that in a very large negative or a very large pattern of objects you might need to lay a framed cover over the cyanotype to stop the cover picking up the wet cyanotype

pentaxuser

gone · Feb 22, 2022

It would work, but concrete being what it is, anything you put into it in terms of a developer would have a lot of light blocked, and the dried image would have to fight thru the concrete on top of it after everything dried.

I've placed carbon copies of my drawings and watercolors onto the top of still-wet plaster of Paris, pressed them in slightly, then used my fingers to quickly spread a little more wet plaster over that to get the image embedded. They were painted over after drying w/ very diluted paints, and you got these beautiful, soft colors (because they sank partially into the plaster).

That technique would probably not work for concrete, so I'd suggest using a more suitable material. Maybe something more in the plaster line? That stuff is finely ground, easy to work with, and you can see the embedded image through it after it dries. It's opaque, but visible. Otherwise, the photo sensitive material/chemical would have to be put on top of the concrete, which might look cool for a coffee table or something. Bit heavy to hang on a wall, but you could.

Cyanotype "on" or "in" concrete

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