Counter number imprinted on film

SMBooth · Jun 27, 2011

Have a problem with the counter numbers appearing on an image, is it possible that an old roll of film will transfer the dye to the film base or do I have a light leak in my camera?. Old film with Provia100-1999. Colours are fine in actual image, but have saturated the attached image to show the problem

Cheers
Shane

Klainmeister · Jun 28, 2011

What type of camera is this?

SMBooth · Jun 28, 2011

This one I made. 90mm 6x17 with helicoil focus.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isisford/5838138245/in/set-72157623878823730

Athiril · Jun 28, 2011

Looks like exposure through the backing paper.

SMBooth · Jun 28, 2011

Seem like I might have to buy a stronger torch to look for the leak. But it would have to be fairly significant to imprint the way it has. Do you know if older backing paper was thinner than the newer stuff because it does appear on a Tmax test roll I did.

polyglot · Jun 28, 2011

How do you wind your film? With a red window or similar to look at frame numbers? I agree that it's light coming through something like that and exposing the film through the backing paper. There are also big horizontal streaks that I suspect come from a similar source.

SMBooth · Jun 28, 2011

There is a sliding cover which reviles a hole to show the frame number, but it is in the top 1/3 of the frame ( iwind left to right using the 6x9 frame numbers), these number imprinted are in the sky so in reality are the bottom 1/3 when the image is reversed in camera so I don't think its the counter hole because light through the counter hole would show up in the lower section.

edp · Jun 28, 2011

Loose roll? Changing rolls in full sunlight?

SMBooth · Jun 28, 2011

edp said:
Loose roll? Changing rolls in full sunlight?

Yes, perhaps the most likely cause.

bblhed · Jun 28, 2011

Ink transfer

edp · Jun 28, 2011

Nice camera btw, apart from the numbers on the pictures ;-)

I have a pile of parts including some of the same ones you've used, waiting to be turned into a 90mm 6x17.

ath · Jun 28, 2011

bblhed said:
Ink transfer

+1. The ink from the backing paper transfers to the emulsion and leaves a mark. May happen when 120 film is stored long.

Steve Smith · Jun 28, 2011

bblhed said:
Ink transfer

I think that's more likely than it being printed through by light as the numbers and marks on your image are lighter than rest of the image. If light was passing through the paper to the emulsion, the numbers and marks would be darker.

Steve.

railwayman3 · Jun 28, 2011

I recall, on a visit to the Ilford/Harman factory, the manager at the roll film line mentioning that special printing ink has to be used on the backing-paper to avoid print-through onto the emulsion. (The printing is, of course, in direct contact with the emulsion surface for the whole time the film is rolled on the spool.) I've seen this print-through myself on a very old B&W film.

If there is no obvious light-leak issue, I'd try the camera with a fresh film.

edp · Jun 28, 2011

This is what happened when I had a loose roll in my pinhole camera: apart from the expected fogging at the edges, there's also an image of the numbers on the backing paper, although I can't explain how. (Ilford FP4+, so near-black on off-white printing on the paper, and decent quality normally light-tight paper).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/2741342351_c690087047_z.jpg?zz=1

bdial · Jun 28, 2011

I would try a roll of fresh film. It's probably more likely from fogging than ink transfer, but it should take quite a lot of light to accomplish that.
I've changed plenty of rolls in full light and never had a fogging problem. The symptoms make me wonder if the the backing paper my have faded causing the problem.

SMBooth · Jun 28, 2011

Thanks for the ideas. In normal usage it will get fresh film, so I 'll just dive right into the Velvia next.. wish me luck.

Athiril · Jun 28, 2011

Steve Smith said:
I think that's more likely than it being printed through by light as the numbers and marks on your image are lighter than rest of the image. If light was passing through the paper to the emulsion, the numbers and marks would be darker.

Steve.

Some backing papers are black with white numbers though?

Steve Smith · Jun 28, 2011

Athiril said:
Some backing papers are black with white numbers though?

None that I have seen but I stand to be corrected. Ilford paper is white, Kodak is yellow and I think Fujifilm is white too. They are black on the rear i.e. the surface touching the non-emulsion side of the film.

When using a camera with a frame counting window, I have always seen a light coloured paper with dark coloured numbers (or in Ilford's case, slightly darker numbers!).

EDIT: Ilford's papers are white for the majority of their length. The last few inches are black which gives some distinction between exposed and un-exposed film when rolled up.

Steve.

edp · Jun 28, 2011

There is certainly some cheap and nasty Chinese film with white on black backing paper; there's some in my fridge.

wotalegend · Jun 28, 2011

edp said:
There is certainly some cheap and nasty Chinese film with white on black backing paper; there's some in my fridge.

Shanghai GP3 (cheap, but not nasty) has black paper with grey numbers - very difficult to see through a red window.

frobozz · Jun 28, 2011

wotalegend said:
Shanghai GP3 (cheap, but not nasty) has black paper with grey numbers - very difficult to see through a red window.

On a nearly completely unrelated subject, Ilford paper has light grey numbers on white paper, which I find all but impossible to see through a red window! Is it just me? The black markings near the beginning show up fine. Why on earth do they use light grey for the numbers?

Duncan

Athiril · Jun 28, 2011

No idea, I use my frame counter.

edp · Jun 29, 2011

wotalegend said:
Shanghai GP3 (cheap, but not nasty) has black paper with grey numbers - very difficult to see through a red window.

I had a look, mine is "Lucky Film". Cheap and nasty. (curly, can't see the numbers through the red window, slower than box speed, etc.).

Counter number imprinted on film

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