Chemical preservation with wine preserver

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by WetMogwai, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. WetMogwai

    WetMogwai Member

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    What chemical in air causes photo chemicals to degrade? Wine preserver is basically air without the oxygen. I would assume oxygen is to blame due to its high reactivity. Would developer last longer with wine preserver in the bottle? I don't develop film as often as I would like to, so I often have to pour out chemicals that I didn't get to use and would like to put a stop to that.
     
  2. Larry.Manuel

    Larry.Manuel Member

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    I think you are on the right track. Others have recommended that same wine preserver. Yes, oxygen is the reactive gas in air. Some other hints: Use glass bottles, as some plastics are permeable to oxygen. Keep the bottles filled, and perhaps in the dark. And lastly, reuse the bag-in-box system that some wines come in. The bags have layer of aluminum, and are fairly impermeable to oxygen. Squeeze all the air out before storing.

    Test fixer and developer before using: Put a large droplet of undiluted developer on film, in room light, and let stand 3-5 minutes, or to your taste. Then fix in room light. A very black spot indicates good developer activity, thin grey indicates tired developer. Nice clear film indicates healthy fix.
     
  3. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    Oxygen is correct. But aqueous solutions, even in a low-O2 environment, can also cause oxidation.
     
  4. OP
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    WetMogwai

    WetMogwai Member

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    Good point, MikeSeb. I hadn't considered the oxygen that is dissolved in the water. I'll probably just take Larry's test recommendation and try to shoot more film so I have to use my chemicals faster.
     
  5. bdial

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    I've seen a wine presevative that is CO2 and some other gas, argon, I think. The CO2 has the potential of raising the acidity of the solution, which would be bad for developer. The "Vineyard Fresh" brand is all argon, at least according to their website.
    There is also a product sold by woodworking and some paint dealers sell called "bloxygen" which is a mixture of argon and nitrogen.
     
  6. Davesw

    Davesw Member

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    I was thinking about that last night. why wouldn't it work? oxidation is the enemy ,float an inert gas on top of what you want to preserve and you are good to go. I also have something called a vin vac. The theory goes like this: you put a rubber cork back in a partly consumed bottle of wine and use the supplied pump to suck the air out of the bottle utilizing the one way valve built in to the rubber cork. I will let everyone know how it works as soon as I end up with a partly full bottle of wine at the end of an evening.So far that has not been an issue, but I could see that working with photo chemicals as well.
     
  7. John R.

    John R. Member

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    Floating lids go a long ways to preserving chem life in large format tanks, eliminating exposure to oxygen. If you remove oxygen in a basic chem storage bottle or other container you will greatly improve the chemical shelf life. I would guess that nitrogen would be a good choice as I used nitrogen burst agitation in hand processing lines I had in my labs. The nitrogen agitates the chems but does not oxidize them so it would probably work well in preserving your bottle stored chems.
     
  8. Craig Swensson

    Craig Swensson Member

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    I`m in same situation, ran a post a little while ago concerning freezing developer - now for the punchline- I work at a winery, :munch: jeez why did`nt i think to try this and the vin vac, wine in open bottle keeps for 14 days or so with vin vac.
    Been inhaling too much product i quess:confused:
    The vin vac[ wine vacum pump] used in a smaller dark glass chemical bottle would be the best start point with tests done at stages, so i think i`ll forget the freeze test and give this a try.
     
  9. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    I use r/o filtered water, then boil it , covered, to drive off dissolved gasses, oxygen among them. Once developers are mixed I have used 'private preserve' wine/scotch gas to good results for preserving developer life. Since then I have sprung for a nitrogen gas cannister and regulator, and it works well also, but would be a bit procey for just chem storage. I use mine to power a wing lynch film processor as well.
     
  10. ajuk

    ajuk Member

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    If I breath in and hold my breath for 90 seconds then blow into the bottle would that do the job?
     
  11. mattmoy_2000

    mattmoy_2000 Member

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    Exhaled breath is still fairly high in oxygen, even after 90s breath hold. I mean, it's better than nothing, but I wouldn't expect anything significant, you're still measuring CO2 in parts-per-million. As mentioned before, CO2 isn't great as it's acidic in aq. solution.
    By the by, why would you use gas to preserve whisky? It's sat in a porous-ish wooden barrel for the last 20 years or so, so any oxidation of alcohol or evaporation of volatile compounds will already have occurred. Wine on the other hand, fair enough...
     
  12. ajuk

    ajuk Member

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    If the breath is still high in oxygen why the need to breath already?
     
  13. michaelbsc

    michaelbsc Member

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    Uhmmm, because you also have to expell the CO2. You have two lung drivers in your body, an Oxygen demand and a Carbon-dioxide demand. Both 'prompt' you to breath. (Yeah, I've got family members with COPD, and I know way more about this than I'd like. But you get what you get in life.)

    MB
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2009
  14. MattKing

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    In the case of HC110, water itself has a major role to play in deterioration of the concentrate.

    Matt
     
  15. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Same Problem + The Solution

    Solution; go Home Brew. A scale + half a dozen chemicals
    will allow you to have fresh chemistry in any amount
    at any time.

    Cost wise; perhaps as little as $70 to $80 including scale.
    A small capacity scale good for 0.01 gram accuracy may
    be your big $$$ hurdle.

    I usually prepare fresh fix for the session. Partial batches
    of developers and some other chemistry are usually
    prepared ahead and kept, ready for dilution, in
    Boston Round glass bottles. Dan
     
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