Carbon Dioxide compressed air - good at stopping oxidation?

jm94 · May 23, 2011

I am waiting on the delevery of the first half of my kodak RA-4 chemicals, and i decided to go to the computer shop and buy some compressed air, to use as a replacment for the tetenal butane spray. Would carbon dioxide be just as effective? It is only half the price! Especially when i mix my first 1L batch when i get the second half, to keep the air off parts B and C. (squirt, screw on cap quickly)
Would this be as effective as the butane stuff? Much safer in my opinion!

TomStr · May 23, 2011

the carbon oxide will push out all the oxygen so it will work fine!!! and it will be a lot safer then butane... keep in mind that CO2 is heavier then air, so you can even "pour" in the gas ;-)
but don't store your co2 supply in your cellar dark room, if it leaks it will fill up your dark room and you can't see or smell it.
Tom

jm94 · May 23, 2011

perfect My darkroom is permantly set up under the stairs It is so much cheaper than getting the tetenal butane spray and in this economy its best to save money! My working solutions are kept in airtight zoom bottles I hadn't thought of the leakage but i ventilate the room for 5 minutes before each session and take breaks every 10 minutes

Steve Smith · May 23, 2011

Carbon dioxide forms carbonic acid when dissolved in water so it might not be a good idea.

Steve.

jm94 · May 23, 2011

If that is indeed the case, then it would do more harm to developers than to fixer. I could look for a nitrogen based can if carbonic acid will be a problem.

mgb74 · May 23, 2011

If you decide to go with nitrogen here's a possible short term approach: many tire shops now use nitrogen instead of ambient air for filling tires (Costco does, other tire shops do so on an optional basis). It might be possible to take a small tire tube (a lawn tractor sized tube might work well) and have it filled with nitrogen.

Or, one of those 5 gal tanks used for filling tires. You could replace the valve for filling tires with a blower type valve.

tkamiya · May 23, 2011

Are you sure your can contains CO2? Many of those "dusters" actually contain flammable gas....

michaelbsc · May 23, 2011

CO2 will absolutely screw up the pH of the developer.

Look for the wine saver stuff.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 23, 2011

I think the wine save stuff is argon which is inert. I think co2 is not. It will probably acidify your developer. I think that's why soda water is slightly sour tasting.

Hexavalent · May 23, 2011

Similar to the "wine saver" products, there are some made for preserving wood varnishes and the like : mostly argon, and having to not meet fancy food-product regulations, a bit cheaper.

hrst · May 23, 2011

RA4 developer keeps very well in full sealed bottles (squeezed plastic bottles, for example). It's much more robust than, for example, C-41 developer. I have had no problems after more than a year, and there are reports of more than three years without problems. Even if the bottle is not perfectly full, it's quite robust.

jm94 · May 23, 2011

I have checked, its not flammable gas. It doesnt have flammable on the back. I will have a look at the wine saver type stuff. Argon would be better due to being innert, some of theese aerodusters also use nitrogen but its just weeding them out thats the hard part! Thanks for the replies!

polyglot · May 23, 2011

Butane is still the cheapest & best option. Go buy a 300g bottle of gas-lighter refill for $2 - it's basically the same as the Tetenal stuff (might have some propane but so what, that's just as good), won't acidify your developer like CO2 and is easier to keep in the bottle (higher molecular weight) than argon.

hoffy · May 23, 2011

polyglot said:
Butane is still the cheapest & best option. Go buy a 300g bottle of gas-lighter refill for $2 - it's basically the same as the Tetenal stuff (might have some propane but so what, that's just as good), won't acidify your developer like CO2 and is easier to keep in the bottle (higher molecular weight) than argon.

Good tip there Polyglot. I have some at home. Will just need to find a spray nozzle to suit (or use the little torch that my wife uses for browning Creme Brulee's, as long as I don't ignite it!!).

polyglot · May 23, 2011

In the simplest case, just push the nozzle in with your fingernails. If you want to get ultra-tricky, use the nozzle off a flyspray can.

hoffy · May 23, 2011

Yeah....can be a bit fiddly, but that should do as well.

Would it be fair to assume that the Butane/propane mix will be fine with just about any chems? If this is the case, my kids will be happy as I won't have to keep on raiding their marble collections!

And while we are on the subject of protecting chems. I have been re-using old Ilford bottles to store all my working solutions in, but I have been replacing the paper seals in the caps with neoprene. Is Neoprene inert enough to be safe? Neoprene is easier to get and dirt cheap.

Cheers

Bob-D659 · May 23, 2011

Neoprene is fine for seals, and the 2 liter soda pop bottles work really well for keeping the mixed RA4 chems in, and it's easy to squeeze out the air, no inert gasses required.

Yes butane is fine for the factory bottles, no added stink in the lighter refill tins either.

Bob-D659 · May 23, 2011

Hrst,

I've noticed it keeps for a long time, I have some mixed Kodak RA/RT chems from last august, prints look identical to ones processed in one month old mixed chems. Also 2 8x10 and 4 or 5 4x5 test prints from the same 70 ml used multiple times in a Beseler drum lowers the per print cost quite a bit. Note, All chems mixed with distilled water.

Photo Engineer · May 23, 2011

Do NOT NOT NOT use carbon dioxide to preserve developers. It is not a good idea for alkaline or neutral fixes either!!!!!!

I hate to keep repeating this, but there must be about a dozen threads on this topic.

PE

jm94 · May 24, 2011

I decided to just get the tetenal butane spray... thanks for the warnings! could have been a very costly mistake for the RA chemicals! thanks for the warnings guys!

Newt_on_Swings · May 24, 2011

You gonna blow up your house using butane. A spark or even a very hot lamp may set it off. Simple things like static electricity can set off a spark, like peeling old tape from film canisters, or when unrolling and big 400ft or 1000ft reel too quickly.

jm94 · May 24, 2011

That did occour to me... due to the rooms poor ventelation despite taking breaks and venting it.. I have just ordered some more collapsable zoom bottles, think they will be the safest route for now! And managed to find (and order) some nitrogen compressed air... after much searching and calling many manufacturers and having to get that shipped from the USA. I had second thoughts before ordering the tentenal stuff... and this stuff will last ages and nitrogen is innert I will use it to keep air off A and B in RA4 kits

Photo Engineer · May 24, 2011

Nitrogen is NOT compressed air! Do not use compressed air.

I suggest that you all search APUG for the several lengthy threads on the subject of using an inert gas to protect developers.

PE

hoffy · May 24, 2011

Newt_on_Swings said:
You gonna blow up your house using butane. A spark or even a very hot lamp may set it off. Simple things like static electricity can set off a spark, like peeling old tape from film canisters, or when unrolling and big 400ft or 1000ft reel too quickly.

Do you have a gas stove in your house, or even gas powered heating?

Do you smoke?

Does anyone own a cigarette lighter, especially a refillable one?

How about a gas powered soldering iron?

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that you pipe in directly from a mains (don't know about other countries, but Australia uses natural gas anyway) or get a 10 KG cylinder (again, Australia has these filled with LPG not butane). We are talking 300g's in a bottle that can be bought in any supermarkets. You also don't need to displace ALL the air out of your containers with the butane. Since butane is heavier then ambient air, all is required is enough to form a barrier to cover the top of the solution. This is probably no more then a short puff.

So, yes, there is a danger if you are not going to be smart about it, or you don't have any common sense.

I do agree, Argon would possibly be a better solution, but then again economically obtaining Argon in the quantities that we require is not necessarily easy either.

michaelbsc · May 24, 2011

hoffy said:
Do you have a gas stove in your house, or even gas powered heating?

Do you smoke?

Does anyone own a cigarette lighter, especially a refillable one?

How about a gas powered soldering iron?

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that you pipe in directly from a mains (don't know about other countries, but Australia uses natural gas anyway) or get a 10 KG cylinder (again, Australia has these filled with LPG not butane). We are talking 300g's in a bottle that can be bought in any supermarkets. You also don't need to displace ALL the air out of your containers with the butane. Since butane is heavier then ambient air, all is required is enough to form a barrier to cover the top of the solution. This is probably no more then a short puff.

So, yes, there is a danger if you are not going to be smart about it, or you don't have any common sense.

I do agree, Argon would possibly be a better solution, but then again economically obtaining Argon in the quantities that we require is not necessarily easy either.

Good retort. I was beginning to think everyone had lost it about how dangerous walking in to Home Depot would be with a whole shelf of butane canisters packed together.

If you use argon, available at almost any welders supply house, you need to displace the air in the bottle. But if you use Butane/LP Gas (Propane)/Natural Gas (Mostly methane) then the gas is not only heavier than air, but it will naturally consume the free oxygen that may be trapped in the vessel with it.

Carbon Dioxide compressed air - good at stopping oxidation?

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