Bleach bypass processing?

[chuck94022]

Does anyone have experience with bleach bypass processing? I like the effect in movies, but have never tried it myself.

I'm presuming this is done at film development time, not paper development, but I have never seen any details, so I could be wrong. Also, is it applicable to slides and C-41?

Anyway, I'd love to read a discussion on this, or a pointer to more info. I did search and find a short note from Bjorke circa 2003, but it wasn't more than a quick summary of the film process.

Thanks!

-chuck

 

[Eric Jones]

In motion pictures you can skip bleach either at the negative development stage or the positive print development stage. Each one gives you a different effect. Skipping bleach on the negative blows out your highlights with an increase of grain, increase in contrast and an increase in saturation. Skipping bleach on the positive print crushes blacks, increases contrast and decreases saturation with a nominal increase of grain (this can depend on how it was exposed, whether pushed processed or flashed). Motion picture film is also processed in different chemicals (ECN-2) than "normal" still films (C-41). Needless to say I have no idea of what the effect you would get by skipping bleach in C-41 is. I sure would be very interested in seeing it though. Anyone try it?

 

[chuck94022]

What about E6? Is it even worth the experiment?

 

[Nick Zentena]

The nice thing about doing your own processing is you can try out anything. Try it if you like it then it's worth it for you.

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/nov98/soupdujour/pg3.htm

http://www.cinematography.net/Pages GB/BLEACH.HTM

 

[Photo Engineer]

If you omit the bleach in E6 processing, you will get a black image. It will consist of a negative and positive silver image and a positive dye image. Not a very nice picture to behold.

PE

 

[psvensson]

In RA4 paper processing, you can replace the blix with fix. This leaves the exposed silver in, boosting contrast but reducing saturation. It can be quite attractive, and can save underexposed negs. I've heard you can do something similar with Cibachrome.

 

[SteD]

What if one wanted to partial bleach bypass paper and play around with the intensity of the effect? Could you adjust the amount of bleach in the blix or would would you need to bleach and fix separately?

 

[Ian Grant]

Needs a separate bleach.
Ian

 

[koraks]

What if one wanted to partial bleach bypass paper and play around with the intensity of the effect? Could you adjust the amount of bleach in the blix or would would you need to bleach and fix separately?

In theory, this could work. In practice, I wouldn't even bother trying.

 

[John Salim]

I experimented with C-41 bleach by-pass about twenty years ago processing Kodak Ektacolor film through Kodak LORR C-41 chemicals.
I simply skipped the bleach tank ( actually manually lifting the hanger across on a Durst dip n dunk processor ).

Dev,
Wash,
Fixer,
Wash,
Stabiliser,
Dry.

Negatives were ( as you'd guess ) extremely dense with long printing times involved.
With some careful grading they look very much like motion picture 'bleach bypass' images........ very satisfying !
John S

 

[halfaman]

I did a couple of years ago a trial with C-41. I follow the recomendation I read somewhere to underexposed by one stop the film to reduce highlights density (Portra 160 exposed at 320 in my case), and I used some neutral fixer leftover (Rollei RXN). I only scanned the negatives, I never print them.

The result was nothing spectacular. Besides a notorious drop in saturation, I only noticed some little highlights blowout.

Some samples below. Camera was a Mamiya Super 23 with 100 f/2.8 and 50 mm f/6.3. Last photo is a tungsten interior light situation (some weird cast expected).

 

[georgegrosu]

Bleaching the bleach solution or using a more diluted bleach / a reduced time it appears in color films alongside the color image a black and white image.
Overlaying the two images (color and black and white) will result in a different picture from the reality.
Generally, this procedure applies to the positive, because the results are quite difficult to reproduce and depend on the nature of the scene being photographed .......
You said you like bleach bypass processing in the movies but you did not show a picture.
I put a picture of Saving Private Ryan that's here.
https://petapixel.com/2015/10/07/5-...cesses-that-challenge-convention-and-realism/
In connection with applying this procedure to reversible color films (E6), I'm telling you that it works.
Remove the bleaching phase after the color development phase, then fix and stabilize.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

The process of removing the bleaching phase from the treatment of the color films(negative, positive or slide) to get good images involves many tests.
First, you need to be clear what you want to get with this special treatment.
A color image along with a Silver-image give strange blue / green areas by scanning (digitalization).
This is what I tell you from my personal It results in a mixture of black and color image obtained only from dyes.experience of ~ 1997
when we had to scan a frame from a color print film - processed in the grafis color process.
Scanning was done by a colleague who It was involved in making digital models for film posters.
He had an Agfa graphics station.
It took me a while to understand exactly what happened with the scanned image.
The image (color print) seen in the projection appeared to be normal, but by scanning appeared the strange color area.
The grafis color process was made in ~ 1975 by: director of photography Aurel Kostrachievici, ing. Dumitru Morozan, technologist of film George Palivat and ing. Marcel Kicarosie.
The grafis color process was made for the color prints treatment and consists of the use of a dilute color positive developer and low concentration bleaching in the classical color print process.
Color image having together an image with Silver will not be able to play true colors of the film by scanning.
You might remember that the color film could not use corrector scratches for scan and perhaps for that were introduced black and white film for color negative process.
Regarding the realization of special effect images I remember that in Buftea Laboratory, in 1985, we made various tests with images mixing.
We do after the color negative a dup positive.
After the dup positive we do a dup negative black & white.
On the color print, copy the image after the color negative and then the image after the dup negative black & white.
I had to copy after color negative and after dup negative to make the same place on the positive color film.
It results in a mixture of black & white and color image obtained only from dyes.
In this case there is no problem with scanning the color positive (color print).

You can read the article from the link 5 Alternative Photography Processes That Challenge Convention and Realism, you can find interesting things.
https://petapixel.com/2015/10/07/5-...cesses-that-challenge-convention-and-realism/

George

 

[Rudeofus]

In connection with applying this procedure to reversible color films (E6), I'm telling you that it works.
Remove the bleaching phase after the color development phase, then fix and stabilize.

If you cross process E6 film as negative film, then I can imagine that you get pics with bleach bypass. If you process E6 film with E6 process, I see no way why you should get normal slides. The only option I see is that you use a bleach like the one used in black&white reversal between FD and CD step.

@John Salim : there are films, which use metallic silver particles as antihalation layer. These films will have high density unless you remove the silver and are therefore not suitable for bleach bypass processing.

@halfaman : you kind of "spectacular" did you expect? With modern C-41 film you need little silver for much dye, therefore you won't build up much extra density with bleach bypass. You did observe much reduced color saturation as shown in your sample images. Since scanners tend to do auto curve correction, you won't get burned out highlights.

 

[koraks]

The times I accidentally did bleach bypass (bleach had gone bad/depleted), the results were spectacularly contrasty. Unprintable, in fact. Even the scanner struggled on the highlights.

 

[georgegrosu]

Rudeofus, I am referring to an E6 process with:
1. b&w developer;
2. stop;
3. washing;
4. removal of metallic silver;
5. washing;
6. second exposure;
7. color developer;
8. stop;
9. washing;
10. without bleaching;
11. without washing after bleaching;
12. fixer;
13. final washing;
14. stabilizer

I use for ECN 2 and E6 process separate bleaching and separate fixer solutions.
I only use solutions made from raw chemicals. No kit.

George

 

[grainyvision]

I haven't done it in actual E-6 chemicals, but here are two examples I have of "partial bleach skip" on C-41 reversal (ie, B/W develop, expose to light, process in C-41) which has the potential of making nice positives. I saw partial because it was not bleached enough, leading to a lot of weird artifacts. In this, the trend seems to be very dingy and grainy green/orange highlights, with a lot of weird edge effects around highlights.






I did a test clipping with no bleaching at all (note that with no bleaching in E-6, the fixer will do nothing, so can be skipped) and I won't bother posting it here, but basically looked "normal" aside from a huge amount of density to punch through. Normal grain, maybe a bit decreased saturation. The cool thing is you can easily test this yourself if you're processing at home. Simply go through the 1st and color developer, give it a good rinse, and then try to scan it. Afterwards you can bleach/fix as normal. It will require a specialized scanning setup that gives you full control. I use DSLR scanning and iirc it took around 8s (f/8, 100 ISO) in order to scan it properly. It really will just look black to the naked eye

 

[halfaman]

@halfaman : you kind of "spectacular" did you expect? With modern C-41 film you need little silver for much dye, therefore you won't build up much extra density with bleach bypass. You did observe much reduced color saturation as shown in your sample images. Since scanners tend to do auto curve correction, you won't get burned out highlights.

I suppose I was waiting to see the same image quality of Saving Private Ryan or Minority Report, and there is much more involved iin those movies than just a bleach-bypass. To notice if someone else is expecting the same result...

 

[georgegrosu]

I did a test clipping with no bleaching at all (note that with no bleaching in E-6, the fixer will do nothing, so can be skipped) and I won't bother posting it here, but basically looked "normal" aside from a huge amount of density to punch through. Normal grain, maybe a bit decreased saturation. The cool thing is you can easily test this yourself if you're processing at home. Simply go through the 1st and color developer, give it a good rinse, and then try to scan it. Afterwards

earlz, congratulations on your evolution in film processing than you were a few years ago..
Your recommendation to remove fixer and stabiliser for a reversible color process can only be useful for intermediate tests that you throw away immediately.
Color films that are not good fixed and stabilized will not be retained properly.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

I suppose I was waiting to see the same image quality of Saving Private Ryan or Minority Report, and there is much more involved iin those movies than just a bleach-bypass. To notice if someone else is expecting the same result...

Your expectations should be proportional to the effort that is made to make a picture.
Behind the photo with Saving Private Ryan or the Minority Report, there are a lot of tests, a bunch of technicians and specialists, and of course they have a lot of money.
Depending on the accumulated knowledge of each and its material possibilities, you will see more interesting or less interesting images.
The tastes may be different.
For me, photography with Saving Private Ryan might be just a landmark I could aspire to in a dream.

George

 

[grainyvision]

Check the stickied thread by PE on this forum about stabilizers, basically for modern C-41 films they are not required. They are required for modern E-6 films and old C-41 films.

Fixing may do something to the emulsion, but it will have no effect on the silver in the emulsion. At the end of E-6 color development (before bleaching) all silver will be exposed and developed and in metallic form. Bleach will convert all of this metallic silver back to a soluble silver that can then be removed by the fixer. Without the bleach, it's all metallic which is insoluble in the fixer and will not be removed... so, fixing will do nothing. I did clip tests which looked identical. One processed with fixing, but no bleach, and one with no fixing or bleach.

 

[georgegrosu]

I do not use film processing kits (C 41 or E6).
I'm making my chemical solutions from raw chemicals.
Do you think that in modern color negatives a stabilization bath with formalin is spoiled for preservation over time?
About bleaching and fixation you are talking about the visual effect on the film.
I am referring to problems that can occur through preservation over time.
Any small amount of halide left in the film after processing will cause this material to be chemically unstable (gas, noxious, ...).
Sure, it might not be the case at you.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

I made a new test with Velvia 50 expired since 2001-3.
I did my process E6 and a silver removal process from black and white development and the elimination of bleaching after the color developer.
That's how it came out to me.
I think I'll try to make some partial bleaching at the silver in the image.
It looks better here.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/48241322542/in/dateposted-public/

George

 

[halfaman]

It is really more dramatic in slide film than in color negative. Thanks for the sample.

 

[georgegrosu]

halfaman, please forgive me for the expression of post no. 20.
With pleasure for examples and you can still see something else.
In order to see what is happening in the color image that still has an silver image I have done a test – Proba 445.
Silver-444 with silver image I sank about half in a diluted bleach solution.
I washed, fix, washed and stabiliser.
The photogram did not feel well in the spiral so that it could have sky with silver and partially shiny sky.
I put the photogram in the spiral with the lying image and somehow moved.

In this way, you can see both the color image with an silver image and a partial bleaching image on the same photo
Here I can post only 1 Mb, being only a member.
If you want to see the bigger picture you can go here.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/48248284671/in/dateposted-public/

George