Bits on film

sim · Sep 22, 2008

Hallo, I am having a slight problem with home processed washed film FP4 in ID11 at 1+1. I would be interested in your views.

On examining the dry negs nder a loupe there are a lot of random specks on the film, when it is wet these specks can be seen under the loupe wandering around in the flow of the surface water. They are obviously in suspension in the liquid until they dry in place. The water is mains water filtered through an Ametek table-top water filter (novadarkrooms) previously a Paterson water filter, with chemicals mixed from the filtered water. Finally the film is sprayed with Ilfotol in distilled water.

Has anyone seen this? Has anyone got any suggestions or is it just that my mains water is as filthy as a sewer (!) & I have to live with it? Ideally I would like to have negs that are clean & dont have specks of rubbish stuck on them as they can be seen on some prints too much to ask? Help very welcome! If it's any help I don't get drying marks at all - just these pesky specks!!

P.S. The ID11 was mixed from unfiltered hot water as the Ametek filter says not to use hot water. According to the instructions ID11 is to be mixed at 40 degrees silly question but would filtered cold water heated on a stove be ok to use?

Neal · Sep 22, 2008

Dear sim,

My guess is no better than yours when it comes to the source of your specks, but 40°C is not too hot for your filter. Water that has been filtered then warmed is just fine as well.

Neal Wydra

sim · Sep 22, 2008

I have to admit that the instructions fo rthe Ametek filter said not to use hot water in it - sounded a bit feeble to me but don't want to boil up & ruin my new purchase !

sim.

sim · Sep 23, 2008

Going to try a new mix of ID11 - filtered cold water heated to around 35degrees in a make-shift water bath before mixing the chemicals - going to keep an eye on those specks & report back!

AgX · Sep 23, 2008

sim,

Your report does not indicate the quality of your wash water. I guess particles taken over with the wash water might stay on the film, in case you only `spray´ it with wetting-agent solution.

Try to immerse the washed film in a wetting-agent bath of sufficient volume instead. And discard the bath after use.

You could also install a filter into your mains, or even better in your lab-extension.

srs5694 · Sep 23, 2008

Any solid particles present in the developer are likely to be washed away in subsequent processing stages. I'd concentrate on the late stages of processing, not the early ones. How are you doing your final wash, are you using a wetting agent, and if you are using a wetting agent, how are you preparing it (with tap water, bottled water, etc.)? I'd start by ensuring that the last bit of water (or water plus wetting agent) that touches the film doesn't come out of your tap -- use bottled water (possibly distilled). If you're already using such water for your dunk in wetting agent, try adding a couple of rinses in that water before the wetting agent bath. OTOH, if you're already using store-bought water as the final step, it's conceivable that it is what's to blame, so switching brands or switching to tap water might help.

sim · Sep 25, 2008

AgX said:
You could also install a filter into your mains, or even better in your lab-extension.

Hallo,

I am using an Ametek water filter from the cold water tap from novadarkrooms:

http://www.novadarkroom.com/product/161/Water_Filters.html

the desktop version using a 10 micron filter.

Have remixed the chemicals using the filtered water & still saw the "specks", though after washing I soaked the film in some filtered water with Ilford ILfotol wetting agent, after some enthusiastic "dunking" there appeared to be less "specks" bu tstill not rid of them entirely.

If the file is rubbed between fingers when wet the "specks" are almost non existent but does risk scratching the surface.

What to do now?

Martin Aislabie · Sep 26, 2008

Sim, I filter all my chemicals going into storage bottles and all the chemicals going into the meassuring cylinders - just to make sure

If I intend to re-use chemicals I filter them back into the storage bottles.

When I filtered the chemicals going back into the storage bottles I was staggered how much "stuff" was being filtered out of the returning chemicals

The main conponent of this stuff was black cotton flecks - from the inside of my film changing bag

Changing to a Harrison Changing Tent (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=1897&PT_ID=309&P=Harrison-Changing-Tents) cured the problems for me

However, I never saw any on my fully washed film - but I do tend to over-wash

Not sure if my experience is relevant but thought I would share it with you just in case

Good luck

Martin

michaelbsc · Oct 10, 2008

Martin Aislabie said:
Sim, I filter all my chemicals going into storage bottles and all the chemicals going into the meassuring cylinders - just to make sure

If I intend to re-use chemicals I filter them back into the storage bottles.

What kind of filter did you use. I've thought about this myself, and my first plan is to use a plain old coffee basket paper filter in the funnel.

Is that a good or a bad idea?

MB

gainer · Oct 11, 2008

The trouble with wetting agents is that when the film dries, the wetting agent may remain in a nice, unifomly distributed layer. Or. it may coagulate into not so nice lumps. Hard water is guaranteed to leave particles of limestone, wetting agent or no. I know I am a photographic heathen, but I use a soft paper towel to get as much water off the film as possible. I draw the film slowly over the towel, one side then the other. No scratches or other artifacts attributed to this practice in all my years of using it.

AgX · Oct 11, 2008

Gadget,

from this I conclude that you don't use wetting agents. Does that mean that in colour processing (in case you ever would process colour) you would prepare a final rinse excluding a wetting agent?

gainer · Oct 11, 2008

AgX said:
Gadget,

from this I conclude that you don't use wetting agents. Does that mean that in colour processing (in case you ever would process colour) you would prepare a final rinse excluding a wetting agent?

First, don't take me (or anyone else, for that matter) too seriously. Second, the few times I have done color I have used the instructions that came in the box. The last time I did color transparencies, it was Anscocolor. My usual practice was to go to the local 1-hour place.

I am not preaching the virtues of leaving out the wetting agent. The advantage of being an amateur most of the time is that I can afford to test to see where the border is between common sense and uncommon nonsense. (Yes, I have read Chesterton.) Sometimes I goof. How would you know if I goofed in this case?

Claire Senft · Oct 11, 2008

A heathen, I bet that goes over like a lead balloon in a small town.

gainer · Oct 12, 2008

Well, I didn't mean that in a religious sense. What might go over worse in a small town in West Virginia is that I am a life-long, well educated, staunch Roman Catholic. A local resident told me years ago "Your grandmother is a fine woman, even if she is a Catholic."

Every one around here likes my photos.

Pardon me if I embelish a little. Many years ago, the telephone system here was a party line. If the phone rang in one house, it rang in all. You could listen in on anyone's conversation, and it was more or less expected that you would, but there was a special ring pattern for help. If you heard that ring, you were expected to listen in to see if there was anything you could do to help.

gainer · Oct 12, 2008

I should have written one more sentence. APUG is like the old-fashioned party line, but with a generalized specialty.

Claire Senft · Oct 13, 2008

Patrick, I was born on a farm 12/1/40. I am very familar with the phone that used the crank or which you used and started the conversation with "Hello central" . I of course just an observer. I have come to the conclusion that in a small town or farming area having a party line eliminated the need for a local section in the newspaper. It seems to me that in 1948 when I moved to Milwaukee that one could still get one in Milwaukee.

I bet that you are to modest by far. I bet that your community also loves your musictoo.

JBrunner · Oct 13, 2008

Caveat- heating water is fine, but boiling water only concentrates sediments.

There has been some good advice in this thread but I will add mine:

Use distilled water (not filtered) as a final rinse after wash, and if you are using a wetting agent use distilled to mix that as well. You won't be using great quantities, so it's cost effective, and it should greatly reduce or hopefully eliminate the problem.

DannL · Oct 13, 2008

I agree with Jason. I simply buy distilled water in one gallon plastic jugs at Walmart. I pour off about an ounce of water and add the required amount of Photo-flo 200 to the gallon jug. (19 cc or 19 ml). Plus, I haven't had a water spot in ages. There was a time that I thought I'd be frugal and reuse the mixture. As the mixture aged it turned in to what appeared to be a jug full of baby jellyfish. Needless to say, I am no longer a "reuser".

Bits on film

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