Bad Box of Ilford MGIV RC?

[coriana6jp]

Hi All,

Just bought a box of Ilford MGIV RC, do to some testing. Still learning how to print, this is the second box of the MGIV RC I have tried. The first box was perfect no problems or any other issues. The new box was sealed and had never been opened.......

Last night set up the enlarger and made a few quick prints. Threw the prints into the developer and noticed something strange. A big white blob in the middle of the paper. Covering up to a third of image area. Looks like it was exposed at somepoint. Thought it might be a fluke, and I tried several other sheets from randomly from the box. All exhibted the exact same thing, though the shape of the spot changed slightly, it was roughly consistant through out the stack. The area around the spot was actually turning brown in the developer, in the fixer. While the unaffected areas where there normal color. I was using all fresh chemicals. After washing and drying, other strange effects are appearing. Things like water marks, and discoloration. Again, the other Ilford papers I have used have never shown this. Tried some other paper last night as well from a different box and it was fine.

Any ideas?

I know the box is bad, not sure if my retailer will take it back. So I may be stuck with a $70 box of bad paper. The other Ilford papers I have been using up until how are be great. Could be just a fluke, but still some what frustrating.

Thanks!

Gary

 

[Markok765]

In the trays, do you push the paper down? i have had this problem

 

[coriana6jp]

Its not that, everything was agitated correctly, and the problem only appears with paper from only the ONE box. Other paper was fine.

Gary

 

[Photo Engineer]

A white blob would not be exposure, a black blob would be.

PE

 

[Bob F.]

Hi All,

Just bought a box of Ilford MGIV RC, do to some testing. Still learning how to print, this is the second box of the MGIV RC I have tried. The first box was perfect no problems or any other issues. The new box was sealed and had never been opened.......

Last night set up the enlarger and made a few quick prints. Threw the prints into the developer and noticed something strange. A big white blob in the middle of the paper. Covering up to a third of image area. Looks like it was exposed at somepoint. Thought it might be a fluke, and I tried several other sheets from randomly from the box. All exhibted the exact same thing, though the shape of the spot changed slightly, it was roughly consistant through out the stack. The area around the spot was actually turning brown in the developer, in the fixer. While the unaffected areas where there normal color. I was using all fresh chemicals. After washing and drying, other strange effects are appearing. Things like water marks, and discoloration. Again, the other Ilford papers I have used have never shown this. Tried some other paper last night as well from a different box and it was fine.

Any ideas?

I know the box is bad, not sure if my retailer will take it back. So I may be stuck with a $70 box of bad paper. The other Ilford papers I have been using up until how are be great. Could be just a fluke, but still some what frustrating.

Thanks!

Gary

Can you scan a print and show us?

If the area is white then it has not been exposed - if it had been exposed it would turn black.

Check that the illumination on your baseboard is even and not dark in the centre with a negative inserted.

A test: take a fresh sheet out of the box and process it without any exposure: turn the safelight right down or cover it so as to rule out fogging from that source. It should come out completely white.

Test 2: Take a sheet out and close the box and turn the lights on so the sheet you just took out is exposed to room light. Process it (in the light) and it should go uniformly black.

If these look OK then the problem is probably somewhere else. If there is a problem - take the paper back to the shop and require a replacement. The same problem in the same place on each sheet suggests damage was done after the paper was coated - possibly heat damage from being placed too near a radiator.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

Hi Gary

No real solution for you, I'm afraid. Only to say that Ilford do have an after sale customer support that is second to none. I know that if it wasn't for where you are in the world, and you lived in the U.K, the box would be replaced immediately.

I would still contact them if I were you, as I'm am sure that they would like to get to the bottom of your problem aswell. If you do decide to, have the batch number at hand, as they will know when and where the box came from, etc, from this.

Best of luck, and I feel for you.

Regards

Stoo

 

[Monophoto]

Been there - - -

A white spot means either no exposure, no development, or no emulsion.

I've had a box of paper that had a consistent coating problem - a 1" band down one side with no emulsion. I can understand how that could happen in an automated coating process - it's harder to visualize a coating problem that would result in a consistent pattern of uncoated areas in the middle of sheets. But I won't rule it out - s**t happens.

Contact Ilford. Be prepared to show them some examples. If it is the paper, they will do the 'right thing'.

 

[dphill]

Gary,
I'm with Louie, contact Ilford about the problem. They are very good about things like this. They are VERY into quality control these days.

I had a problem with a pack of MGIV RC that was trivial compared to your situation and Ilford responded beyond my expectations.


Dan

 

[coriana6jp]

Hi All,

Thanx for the helpful replies. I know the enlarger is fine, because I made a print of the exact same negative on a different batch of paper and its fine. I attached a couple of examples. Please let me know what you think.

I am going to have to contact Ilford, the retailer at which I purchased the paper at is 600km from here, and I am not going back down there for a long time. (Small Mom & Pop place I go when I visit my inlaws, no web presence).

Thanks Again.

Gary

 

[Monophoto]

Gary -

A control test would be to take two sheets of this paper, expose one to white light and process it normally, and then process the second with no exposure to light. The first should give you results similar to what you are showing in your examples, while the second should be blank white.

Then, examine the blank white (unexposed but processed) sheet to see if you can detect any pattern in the surface that suggests that the emulsion may be physically defective.

Finally, look at the package to see if there is any evidence that it may have been exposed to moisture.

Based on your description and what you have shown, I tend to agree that the paper is rusak. Contact Ilford - our friend Simon here on APUG would be a good starting point and he's just an e-mail away.

 

[User Removed]

You are not pushing it down into the developer.

 

[david b]

Looks like a box of art to me.

 

[coriana6jp]

You are not pushing it down into the developer.

Trust me thats not the problem. Other paper from other boxes were fine, just paper from this box was bad. I am going to do another test tonight as suggest by Monophoto and see what the results are.

It does not show up on the scan, but there are actually strange brownish streaks in the white areas or the prints. I am going to drop an email to Simon, and see what he says.

Thanks Again for all the help.

Gary

 

[Paul Sorensen]

Did the paper stick together in the box? We give our students a value pack of ilford paper and film to get started and one of them, just one from all that we bought, showed a similar problem. The paper was sticking in the pack and the area where it was sticking was not getting as exposed. It was not the same as yours, this one had a gradation from correct exposure to white, and it was on the end of the sheet, but it seems pretty similar.

I was going to regturn the pack to the store where we got it, but I just forgot. I personally tested it and it was definately defective, I am guessing due to exposure to moisture somewhere along the way.

 

[PhotoJim]

You are not pushing it down into the developer.

The edges of the fault on the second sample image are far too sharp for this to be the issue. Unless there is no agitation at all, those edges would be quite diffuse and uneven.

My guess is a coating fault.

 

[User Removed]

Yeah, it just somewhat looked like the print was layed down into a tray of developer, not completely into the developer, and it was not touched until it was removed. Even in the black areas, there is streaking and what looks like uneven development.

The way he described it chaging colors as well is what happens when a piece of photo paper is exposed but not developed.

Well, test out the paper and see how things work out and report back to us!

 

[Photo Engineer]

To test for a defect in the emulsion, take a sheet in daylight and develop it to give a fully black uniform image. Defects will show up as white or light spots.

If the spot is uniform with the rest of the surface, that is, there is no depression, then the emulsion is there, but something has desensitized it such as water. A drop of water on Ilford MGIV will cause a white dot.

If there appears to be a crater or depression forming the white dot, then the emulsion is missing.

This test must be done on a sheet freshly out of the developer, and should be a touch test to feel for the depression forming the white spot.

PE

 

[Bob F.]

A coating fault would not give the same problem in the same place on each sheet - paper is coated in large rolls and then cut to size. Whatever has happened almost certainly occurred after coating, cutting and packing.

I wonder if the emulsion has stuck to the back of the next sheet due to moisture? The sharp edges do look somewhat as if the emulsion has been ripped off!

In any event, I'm sure Ilford would be very happy to get a few sheets of this and see exactly what happened to it. Simon Galley is on his hols at the moment I believe, but is sure to see this on his return.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I believe it was mentioned above, but repetetive defects can take place at the same spot on cut sheets if the problem is on a sticky rolller. Or, it will move down the cut sheet in increments from sheet to sheet depending on roller size and cut sheet size.

In most operations, a web, or master roll is slit to width and then chopped, stacked and packaged. In others, the web is slit to double width and then as packed, is slit to width and packed face to face in double sheets.

In either case, you can see repetetive defects, one is every sheet static, or moving downwards from one end to the other, and in the other case it would be on every other sheet.

PE

 

[Bob F.]

Yes, but what are the chances of it exactly matching a particular sheet size and in the middle of the cut sheet? Rather slim I would have thought - hence my use of "almost certainly" - my Get Out of Jail Free card...

Cheers, Bob.

 

[coriana6jp]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, very interesting reading. I repeated the test last night, including taking a couple of sheets exposing them to room light for a few minutes then developing them. Pretty much the exact same result, big white blob pretty much in the same place.

I think at this point its either a coating error or the paper was exposed the moisture at some point. The box has no signs of water damage at all, though the paper it self was a little sticky when first opened. I wonder if at some point when it was packaged if moisture didnt get into the bag?!?!

I dropped an email to Simon, be looking forward to hearing from him. Though this certainly is a not a good thing to come back to after holiday. (Sorry, Simon)

Again, thanks for everything, its very very helpful and appreciated as always.

Thanx.

Gary

 

[firecracker]

Have you checked with Chugai if you bought the paper in Japan? Well, a few months ago, they had a posting for a product recall saying some boxes of their Ilford RC paper exposed to the x-ray scanning during the shipping had shown some fog. There are some serial numbers listed at their website:

http://www.chugai-photo.co.jp/

Maybe that's not all the damages they have detected...

 

[coriana6jp]

Hi Firecracker,

Sorry I was up in northern Tohoku the last couple of days. I forgot about calling Chugai, I will try that today. Sadly, when I have talked with them in the past about ordering other items like Sheet film or some of the newer Ilford developers they have not been very helpful. I dont really like Chugai very much.

Thanks Again, and I will give them a call.

Gary

 

[firecracker]

Hi Firecracker,

Sorry I was up in northern Tohoku the last couple of days. I forgot about calling Chugai, I will try that today. Sadly, when I have talked with them in the past about ordering other items like Sheet film or some of the newer Ilford developers they have not been very helpful. I dont really like Chugai very much.

Thanks Again, and I will give them a call.

Gary

Email them, too, which is what I did the last time I had question on their products (well, really theirs but Ilford's). Emailing them may be better to have someone there respond to your question(s). Technically they should be the one to deal with the Ilford customers in Japan.

But generally as a company I think they suck, and I don't like them, either. They don't seem to care about their customers at all.

At the same time, I don't really trust any international carriers (such as FedEx and UPS) that much since at least the small portion of the Ilford paper regularly imported by their official dealer Chugai has been fogged! I don't know which carrier Chugai has used and how the fogging has happened, but it's pretty bad.

I have not heard any damage report from any individual who orders photo paper internationally, but this seems to be another big nightmare.

So, here's my tip: If you like Ilford neutral tone and want to use FB sometime in the future, try Oriental VC FB paper, which is very close to that of Ilford if you develop in Dektol. This is the closest match between the two different products I have found so far, and Oriental is a domestic supplier, which you don't have to deal with this kind of headache.

I haven't used Fuji Rembrandt FB paper, but I heard it's in the same league as other two also, although it is a bit more expensive than Oriental. But that's also another widely-available domestic product.

And for the RC paper that's close to Ilford pearle, I guess the discontinued Mitsubishi is the best bet, but it's getting hard to find the leftovers in the stores.

 

[nworth]

I have also had rare, but occassional, problems with MGIV. A couple of years ago I got four 25 sheet packages of the paper (the local supplier was out of 100 sheet boxes). All the packages were properly sealed and generally pristine. Two of the packages were just fine; the other two had severe fogging on the edges of all sheets. Weird. Although they are generally excellent, there may be some slight, enduring quality problems at Ilford.